laird387

Another sad loss to the sport - Peter was one of those characters in the background who most people 'knew' but didn't quite know why - but the ones who really knew are aware that our sport could not exist without such enthusiasts. Peter was a bachelor and an only child, probably in his mid-sixties. Well known and usually helping in one way or another at the Scott trial - or indeed any trial in that area. He lived at Wynyard, near Stockton. Not many are aware of his enduring sponsorship of awards centred on the Ladies championship events, awards that were valued for their careful choice of valuable items that would be useful for a lady competitor. No details yet of his funeral arrangements - but respect and condolences are due.

Jon, On the first few Arbuthnots we had quite sizeable entries from Morganatic three-wheelers and one BSA Scout, I don't know how they got round, but I spent several hours helping push them down the two-ply narrow lanes, then left them to it at the lunch stop. I still have one of the small Robert Arbuthnot statuettes to remind me of the hours Ian Rennie and I spent with County Surveyors working out where the route should go, all we had to go on was a route card that said, starting from the Green Dragon at Barford St Martin, go down the road for 440 yards then take the narrow lane on the left........ That referred to 1929 and we were in the late 1970s, people had built motorways, dual carriageways, roundabouts, houses, in the intervening period........ At the end of the day we were satisfied we had the correct route, then started gaining permissions. We dressed smartly and went on a gleaming old Norton and equally shiny Matchless and were treated as royalty by all the landowners, without exception. We then went round ten days or so before the event and saw them all personally and checked that all was still OK. It made us a lot of friends and made organising the events a real pleasure, if time consuming (I was living in Hertfordshire at the time, so it meant fair travelling) Now I would like to see similar events in a British Bikes series - but afraid the A-CU will kill it - even if we got it started.

Hi, I have many happy memories of the Arbuthnot, including quite a few years arriving at the finish on my pre-war BSA girder/rigid with what felt distinct like terminal numb bumb, or discussing with Viscount Head when we approached him for permission to use many of the areas that were on his land and being greeted like old friends and reminded to give him a call a few days before the event "because the grand-children love watching all the old bikes......." If anyone has images I will happily put a feature in our digital magazine. Just email me with details and I'll do the rest.

Sorry, Those birth dates definitely rule out any connection.

hi dave, "That explains it then, thanks. Are multi lap off road trials a modern invention ?" There were occasionally club events that were multi-lap off-road, my first club was West Leeds and we ran multi-lap trials on our land (which we paid an annual rent for) perhaps a dozen times a year on Post Hill. But Open-to-Centre and upwards events were never multi-lap off-road. There was, of course, the very first trial there ever was, the Scott trial, which used two laps over a vast primarily off-road area, but the first multu-lap national event that I remember was the 1972 Inter-centre Team Trial which was a multi-lapper run on Burrington. These are all fully reported with copious supporting photographs in our digital magazine, if you are really interested. Cheers Deryk

Hi davetom, I am mystified. - how do you arrive at the thought that an entry of up to 250 riders - get to ride four times each through a section in a single lap road trial. Remember the original series was reverting to the way trials used to be in the 1950s and early 1960s, single lap events of up to 70 miles round............ That is the problem - and I know it only too well - to have ridden in a trial, legally, before 1965, a rider would have to be at least sixty-seven years old today - and that is the nub of the problem. Modern riders are no longer (on the whole) motorcyclists who ride their bikes every day to work.............. Cheers Deryk

Hi, Way back in this totally pointless discussion, on post 86 collyolly asked if the original author of the 450 entries trials would elucidate. I am the original author, so here is what I hope will be taken as the definitive answer. Firstly credentials. I, with the help of John Smith of the Rochdale club, and Derek Lord, decided that trying to ride in the trials of the time was getting to be dangerous. John used his uncle's Norton 500T, I had an Ariel, Derek Lord had a Triumph Tiger Cub, but knew the land we were proposing to use for a trial with sections set out to suit the older bikes. That was in August 1972 and we called it the Bigger Banger trial, gained an entry of 53 riders and the event was won by Arthur Lampkin riding one of his own collection of ex-works Gold Stars, his rigid. We had a super day out everybody enjoyed themselves and we decided to organise regular trials on a similar basis to help people like ourselves, young working riders with young families who could not afford one of the new-fangled Spanish bikes - and used ones were few and far between and still above our price range - but we either organised trials for our old British bikes - or gave up motorcycling. Another point - the 'tag' pre-65 only ever referred to the pre-unit class of bikes, I know that is correct because I am sure that Mike Rapley will remember I first used that description in my column in TMX - but it was picked up universally and misused ever since............... To progress, I also wrote for the now defunct British Bike Magazine, and they decided to support a series of trials that I was helping to organise around the country with help from the late Dennis Bridges of the Stratford on Avon club, the late Howard Midgley of the then Yorks and Lancs Classic Bike club (which later split into the Red Rose and Yorkshire Classic clubs) and Mickey Rees of the now defunct Islwyn club. The series became known as the British Bike Championship and was organised primarily by myself but with radical help from Les Davis of the A-CU and also the team at the AMCA led by my very good friend Don Greene, it enabled riders affiliated both the A-CU and also AMCA clubs to participate. Sadly British Bike Magazine collapsed, but Sammy Miller stepped in and offered sponsorship by way of end of year awards. I continued as Series Coordinator and did so for thirteen years. In that role I issued all the entry forms to riders who supplied a SAE but, more importantly, visited every club who wished to enter an event in the series, vetted the sections they planned to use, rode the sections they planned, suggested modifications to bring them to the series standard, then when I was satisfied assigned them a non-scoring round for them to prove they had the capability to run a championship event. If that proved successful, they were then assigned one of the twelve rounds for the following year. Quite a few clubs failed to meet the series standard. As coordinator I maintained the series results and posted them out to every rider, I was present at every one of the Sammy Miller rounds during those, riding in many of them, photographing at others along with my late wife Mary, who photographed every one of the Sammy Miller rounds during those thirteen years. From my copious sheets of results I kept a master sheet of every riders performance in each of those trials, which averaged between 150 and 250 entries at each event. AT THE END OF EACH YEAR EVERY RIDER WHO HAD RIDDEN IN THREE EVENTS OR MORE IN THAT YEAR GOT AN ILLUMINATED PERSONAL CERTIFICATE and for over TEN years i sent out 450 certificates a year. THAT IS WHERE THE 450 DETAIL ORIGINATES, IT IS NOT A MYTHICAL ENTRY AS SOME TROLLS WOULD HOPE - IT IS A FACT, EACH YEAR AT LEAST FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY DIFFERENT RIDERS SUPPORTED AT LEAST THREE OF THE TWELVE EVENTS. Sadly, to finish the story, Mary contracted cancer and passed away three years later, I was too busy looking after her with chemotherapy visits two days a week, etc., and the A-CU stepped in reorganised the series, dropping the association with the BMCA (the separate unit formed within the AMCA specifically to support classic events) and started just accepting offers to run events from any club, whether they were capable or not - and with no great surprise, the events degenerated. Support from the hardcore of riders diminished and that brings us up to date. One last word from one who knows - I know it is way off topic - but it could help in lots of situations. Gnat bites (or as the Scots know them - midgie bites) are an avoidable bloody nuisance. You can buy all sorts of vastly expensive sprays which most people find less than effective - or you can go into your local Boots chemist, and it has to be Boots, and purchase a bottle of their 'Eau de Cologne' not the expensive '4711' concoction but the simple big plain bottle of BOOTS EAU DE COLOGNE, sprinkle a little in the palm of your head then apply a coating to any exposed skin, forehead , face, etc. The midges hate it and they prefer to go away and bite somebody else.

Hi, I am sorry that, having posted my last comment on this topic, I find another aspect has been raised subsequently that I have facts to assist the consideration, not just opinions to feed the misinformation glut. davetom quite fairly expressed his opinion, succinctly as: "Road Trials = Insurance, which means up to date V5, MOT, licence etc. If that's the only road trial on your calendar, it adds quite a cost. Over and out. " You are not unique in that view, Dave, but sadly not quite correct. That was the view expressed by the SSDT committee when they decided, 12 years after the rest of the UK to introduce a pre-65 element in their pre-SSDT event based in Kinlochleven. They did not believe riders would undertake the MOT, insurance, rituals in order to ride on the road and reuse some of the traditional Scottish sections. They continued in that vein for several years with a relatively small entry of riders taking part. Then I was approached and suggested they get back out on the road. They had a limit of one hundred and fifty riders imposed by the local authorities and the RAC, which was heavily oversubscribed on the first year - that has continued to be the case every year since and now most people are aware that they could split the two days into two events over the same routes but with separate entries on each day, I.E. twice that entry AND STILL BE OVERSUBSCRIBED. Now those riders do not just tax and insure their bikes for just that one event - they tax them for at least six months, for example..........so there's 350+ potential entries - and don't think that many of them are there because they live in Scotland anyway, the actual local element is pitifully small (probably because many are involved in the event in other ways). Another pointer close to my heart is the Arbuthnot trial, which I was very much involved in the resurrection. Intended primarily for rigid machines it involves plenty of roadwork and attracted entries close to the hundred mark, the latest on that I have actual statistics for was the 2014 event which had an entry of 89 machines, all British and not a twinshock in sight. There were plenty of riders who contribute to this forum at Barford St. Martin, ask them what their views are. So, apart from the problems of the current authorisation headaches to stay on the roads, it does enable our sport activity to be spread over greater areas, with less concentrated noise and local resident irritation compared to single venue events, moreover it retains the essential element of classic trials in reverting to the way trials were organised before the armada of Spanish machines arrived and changed the nature of trials for ever. Enjoy

Hi, I promise this is my final word on the subject. The trials that are successful are those that realise that 5% of the entry will be brilliant riders who could take a farmyard gate, fit casters and a tiny Chinese motor and still ride most sections. Another 10% will very rarely, if ever, clean a section, no matter how competent the machine they ride is. That leaves the rest of the entry, basically competent riders who are there hoping to enjoy themselves, ride a few sections clean, struggle in some of the others, fail dismally occasionally - BUT able to compare their ride with someone else who they feel normally would beat them........ How did I run a series for thirteen years that had for over ten of those years more than 450 riders who rode in three of the twelve annual rounds or more? I, personally, checked the severity of the sections that were being set..........my rules of thumb were/are relatively simple, recognise the virtual universal skill rules I set above - and match the sections to it. That means 5% of the sections needing very exact skills to get a clean, 10% of the sections that almost certainly could be cleaned by every rider entered - then set the rest somewhere in between, but always mindful that it should be possible for everyone to get through them, even if paddling along all the way.... I always recognised that people sitting on their bikes in the crowd waiting to start would be nervous, apprehensive about what they were going to find in the trial ahead, so every trial that I was ever involved with had the first section set intended for most of the entry to be able to clean - that cleared the nervous tension for everyone and they continued into the rest of the trial full of confidence whatever they were riding.........set a really difficult first section and listen to the moans and grumbles for the rest of the day......... The way to get rid of the cheats, whether you can spot the trick bikes or not? Keep your sections on the easy side, let the cheats finish the day with all of them on a clean ride, I promise you I have done that and it works, they didn't come back 'cos they had no way to demonstrate their 'superiority' - but the vast majority of riders really enjoyed themselves and came back time and again. But whatever you do - ENJOY YOURSELVES

Hi TTSpud, "Wow, yes, very interesting stuff. 2-stroke, 2 cylinder, 2 speed... Let's hope pre65 can get a future 100 years!" It is not unknown for a Scott to be ridden in recent Bonanza trials.................there's hope yet!

Hi trialsrfun, In this year's Talmag, there were nineteen entries in the 'less than 300cc' class, plus quite a few more in the 'gather all in' class described as 'Clubman rider on any fourstroke machine'. Also please remember the Talmag IS NOT and never was, a Pre-65 event. It was created by my friend John Allaway and his colleagues as a 'European Fourstroke Trial'

Hi Paul, Give me the birth date of Gordon Inglesby Francis and I will try to help by checking whether his son could have been alive when my great friend Gordon was! Myself I think it unlikely since Gordon's interest in photography actually started when he was drafted into the Photographic Section during his National Service in the RAF - he himself was a keen car person, production car trials especially.

The problem, as I see it,for the twostroke classes are the modern reincarnations of previously existing models - but with fascinating little modern tweaks! Bearing in mind the eligibility cut-off date for the twostroke class was 31 December 1968, that would rule out, for example, any four-speed Bantam motor (The first factory experiments with the four-speed were in the early summer of 1972........) My suggestion for this dilemma would be to create a separate class for them, entitled 'Britshock', into which all the Drayton, and similar, models could happily compete against each other. In the class I would also include all the modern built James and Francis-Barnett lookalikes, with their interesting little reed valved interiors. The object never was, and in my view never should be to exclude anyone - merely to get them to compete fairly against similarly equipped machines. As to when twostrokes were first ridden in trials, it is not necessary to read my good friend Max King's book - simply remember that the very first observed trial for motorcycles anywhere in the world was created just over a hundred years ago and preparations are in full swing for this years event. The event? The Scott trial, organised to create a competition for the test riders of Scott twostroke, two cylinder, two-speed motorcycles.

Hi trialsrfun, "Where are bikes like my Greeves Anglian with factory fitted Ceriani forks placed in this series, time and again Greeves, Sprite, Cotton as well as Cheetah and many more are completely excluded because of the Pre 65 title. " Your problem is one that was introduced when the A-CU took over the series and allowed organising clubs to set their own rules. I am attaching a copy of the initial Sammy Miller series Regulations, which you will see, recognised your dilemma. Cheers Deryk Wylde 1. MACHINE ELIGIBILITY: To be eligible machines must have been manufactured in Britain, prior to the 31 December 1958 for vintage twostroke machines; prior to 31 December 1964 for all pre-unit classes; prior to 31 December 1969 for twostroke and unit construction classes. All major components to include frames, forks, hubs, engines, gearboxes, clutches and carburettors must be of British manufacturer and available before the date of eligibility for the class concerned, with the minor concession that Amal carburettors up to Mk 1 Concentric may be fitted. Motorcycles fitted with non-British components during manufacture, such as Ceriani forks on certain Greeves models and Grimeca hubs on some DOT models, will be accepted as British, but those components will not be accepted on machines of other manufacture. Any model of British manufacture but with component parts that are not date eligible, such as alloy slider BSA or Triumph forks (1972) on unit models, may ride in the Specials class. Replica frames are accepted in the class of machine that they replicate provided they are dimensionally accurate replicas, i.e. components from the original models will fit without modification. Trail machines may be of any manufacture but must have fully working lights. Allocation of the correct class will be verified, if required, by the Series Coordinator. The decision as to which class a hybrid machine is allotted shall be made such as to place the machine in the more competitive class, for example an Enfield Bullet motor mounted in Enfield Crusader cycle parts is deemed to be a unit model. The essence of the eligibility rules is to encourage fair competition. If anyone would like a complete set of the regulations, just PM or email me. DW

Hi, John Collins et al, I can't volunteer, sadly, because I now have mobility problems which preclude me doing the job - but believe me, if I could, I would. I really believe that the current Sammy Miller format has well and truly run its course and is now dead, dead, dead in the water. Before worrying about the classes and the number of routes I truly believe the greater concern is whether the clubs applying for rounds are capable of running such an event............. My suggestions are quite radical because, as usual, I don't follow the popular beliefs that you have to include twinshocks in order to make it a viable series! I am not unique in that view because there exist clubs in the UK who regularly prove that by excluding the twinshocks they gain bigger entries. Look at the Somerton Classic clubs British Bike Trial, compare the number of entries with their regular trials; look at the numbers participating in every Yorkshire Classic trial. So the opportunity is there for someone to start a British Bike series - please believe me, if riders of British bikes knew there was going to be a trial with ALL the sections set to suit them and no compromise to give a twinshock a competitive ride, then they would flock to it. Look at the Talmag trial, even the Pre-65 Scottish (if you must - but tighten up their eligibility rules). There has to be a 'Specials' class where all machines are placed that have been created on the basis of what a machine could have been like in 1964 if only they had known about this technology The success or otherwise of any series will always rely totally on grasping the nettle of separating the newly created machines from the original machines in the classes, so the classes need to be carefully defined - and the section plotters must have ridden a heavy old British bike before they are allowed to select their courses. In the old days when clubs told me they didn't have any experienced riders of British bikes I made them choose their sections, then ride them on their current bikes with a pillion passenger aboard - that soon got rid of the ridiculously steep drops, etc. Remember that I created the Pre-65 movement in order that those of us who loved riding in trials, but couldn't afford one of the new Spanish machines in those early years, could still have somewhere to ride - surely there is merit in creating a series of classic trials where no poor course plotter is set the task of organising several quite separate trials within the ambit of one set of entries, even if there is land accessible to them that would cater for the various needs. When we started the pre-65 movement one of the immediate advantages was that land that had fallen out of use because there were no challenging hazards for the Bultacos and Montesas, etc., could be brought back into circulation. So there's a start - what do you think?

R.I.P. Islwyn, Lost but never forgotten - The Neverland Lostboyos................

Hi TTSpud, Thanks for your kind comments - do not abandon hope, there are good pre-65 events to be found, but you have to look for them - have a look at the BMCA events in the Midlands - or the Somerton Classic or the Yorkshire Classic events, then there is the Scarborough Two-day, any Red Rose Classic events.... Yes, there are plenty about, and all seem to have a refreshing 'prefer original bikes' way of working. I shall continue to support them with comprehensive reports in our digital magazine. But whatever else, ENJOY, Deryk

Hi, rusty ken et al, "Also agree about the lack of a pre unit class (is this not the type/spirit of bike that classic trials was invented for?)" As the daft old duffer that organised the first ever pre-65 trial and then went on to create the British Bike Championship, which was transformed, eventually into the Sammy Miller series, which I then ran for the first thirteen years before I had to give it best when my wife was confirmed as having terminal cancer and the series was handed over to the A-CU, it may interest you to know that nobody has ever even bothered to ask for my opinion or thoughts on the matter. The truth is that very first trial was actually called the Bigger Banger trial and it was specifically intended to recreate trials where average riders on old British pre-unit machines could still ride round the sections - because they could no longer be even pushed round the tight turns and steep climbs that the current crop, in the day, of Spanish two-strokes could clean all day in competent hands. So to see the projected next series not even differentiating between pre-unit British bikes and, say, trick little Tiger Cubs just makes a parody of the whole idea - and makes me realise just how the sport has disappeared in favour of pure commercialisation and profit. Sad, sad, sad.

Confucius Did Not Say! Man who wants pretty nurse must be patient. Passionate kiss, like spider web, leads to undoing of fly. Lady who goes camping with man must beware of evil intent. Squirrel who runs up woman's leg will not find nuts. Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion. Man who runs in front of car gets tired, but man who runs behind car gets exhausted. Man who eats many prunes get good run for money. War does not determine who is right; it determines who is left. Man who fights with wife all day get no piece at night. It takes many nails to build a crib, but only one screw to fill it. Man who drives like hell is bound to get there. Man who stands on toilet is high on pot. Wise man does not keep sledge hammer and slow computer in same room. Man who lives in glass house should change clothes in basement.

Hi, floydbassman, The usual Greeves filter arrangement looks like the coloured image below, the usual private owner arrangement replacing the Villiers filter. But all the works bikes were fitted with a much larger (double the air volume) aluminium can with air entry at the bottom, as seen on Don Smith's bike (I have ALL the works riders in ORRe - all fitted with the same filter as Don's bike). When Greeves had to move to a different engine supplier when Manganese Bronze (AMC) took over Villiers and decided not to support other manufacturers, they created the Pathfinder which had a much larger airbox from the outset. One of the Greeves works scrambler set ups can be seen on Dave Bickers bike, a much larger disc shaped airbox under his left knee. These are just a sample of the images available in ORRe.

Now laddie, You are forgetting the bloody-minded council officials motto: "Don't confuse me with the facts - MY MIND IS ALREADY MADE UP..........."

Hi, In 2002 I published an A4 hardback book of 192 pages, entitled 'Midlands Rich Mixture' written by Bob Light. It was a limited edition book of just seven hundred copies and it will never be published again in printed format. Occasionally one sees copies in bookshops and prices vary between £75 and £110. It is a comprehensive account of the development of all motorcycle sport in the midlands between 1930 and 1950 and covers all formats. Starting in issue 47 of our digital magazine I am republishing the entire book in serialised form except in this version where we have found additional archive images that were not available in 2002, they will be included. Whilst the ORRe costs £12 for an annual subscription, with that you will also gain instant access to ALL the back copies (45 so far) which already include the serialised versions of 'Lochaber Rich Mixture' the illustrated history of the SSDT, 'First Rich Mixture' (motorcycle sport in the western centre), 'Bikes - Camera - Action' by Gordon Francis and also the last book that Max King wrote, but sadly died before it could be published. There are several more books that I published which will be given the same treatment. Watch this space..............

I carried heavy old British bikes for thousands of miles on a rack on the back of a six cylinder LWB Safari for years in the 1970s. For events that were many miles away we also hooked our caravan on the back at the same time. The Land Rover is built for hard work and didn't appear to notice the load, although I had checked very thoroughly that I was well within the tow bar loading allowances before starting the project. The rack I used comprised three parts, a sturdy back plate that went between the tow ball and the rear plate of the Land Rover chassis which had two square section tubes welded vertically either side of the hitch, then there were two removable sections, all made of square section tube, one with a loop into which the rear wheel of the bike slotted, the other with an angled loop which carried the front wheel. I had a strap which went around the seat tube of the bike to the spare wheel mounted on the rear door, then a trailer board/number plate which plugged in to the caravan socket on the Safari. The loading was nothing near as great as, for example, having a shooting party of three in the rear seat and four in the side seats of the rear compartment, so the Land Rover springing took it in its stride, as it were. Like has been said above, you could cope with parking no matter what the ground conditions were and there were several occasions when my tow chain helped to extract the entire fleet of competitors vehicles, like at the very first Union Jack trial organised by the Stratford upon Avon club, I think the venue was called something like Desert Woods, when they all parked up on a dry sunny day - then it began to rain and deluged throughout the event, leaving the parking area at the bottom of the field as a quagmire......... Happy days.

Hi bashplate, Obviously open air is virtually unlimited air space - but only until the outside of the foam filter gets covered in the gooey, sticky mud we call 'the Scott trial', for example.................

Hi Will, Your tutors were not wrong - mine said the same and every bike I had subsequently was brought into line with a large air box, almost inevitably with all the air entry from below to prevent clogging with cascading mud and general detritus as might often happen when responding to Jack's motto "When in doubt - flat out"........ Inside each airbox was the current fashion of air filter, bearing in mind that the foam types are relatively recently on the scene compared to yours and my experiences..........