old trials fanatic

You make some good points as usual Nigel. Re the "stop for a nano is a 5" if my memory serves me well from uni if the stop was for less than a 50th of a second your eyes wouldnt register it so you could stop for a nano second and still not get a 5 lol .

Agreed Trials isnt about spectators who after all dont contribute anything to the event. It's a participant sport. Perhaps some of the top riders need to practice some proper sections now not just BIG BIG rocks and splats. Perhaps they are missing their minders telling them what to do next?

It' also the attitude' amongst some lets say younger people although i can think of at least four over 50's too' that it doesnt matter how you win but that you win so it's ok to argue or try to influence or intimidate to achieve that win. Not saying that was the case in this instance because i am posative it wasnt but i have seen it at other trials and it's prevalent in football and many other sports and it's not sporting behaviour as i was taught it. Also as someone else so rightly pointed out earlier on this thread it will take a long time to re educate riders who are used to stopping and sorting themselves out to realise a stop is a stop as in no forward motion = 5. Question "Please explain how wiggy lost?" simple he didnt make as good a job of riding this section as some others did. Dan Thorpes ride left no doubt it was a clean if wiggy had done the same i am sure he would have had a clean too.

OK remember this is purely from memory i seem to remember seeing shirt ones in 1986. Think Rosey will know for sure as he was a Team Yamaha rider

Nigel do you think every referee at every football match, rugby match, tennis tournament even snooker match are never inconsistent? Officials seem to be the most villified at every opportunity but without them there wouldnt be an event. Are you saying this inconsistency has only suddenly appeared , possibly in even the same people, now events have returned to non stop?

I know what you mean most Classic rules prohibit disc brakes too but it is as was available to be bought by me you or anybody else in the late 60's so is it right not to allow it in ?

Hi Javier. To me it's just neutral. A discription of how we arrived at where we are today. ALL forms of motor sport from F1 to Auto testing have rules and eligability criteria. Modifying machines is and always has been part of motor sport. In the UK a motor manufacturer, cant remember which, once used the slogan "racing improves the breed" basically since the very first competition machine it would have been modified and then modified again before the next competition. Because of this rules were invented so people had to think long and hard how to use the rules to their advantage or how to get round them and on it goes. The rules and the engineers always trying to thwart each other. It's just the way it is. It's human nature.

Just checked the ACU Handbook and indeed you are correct the knee down should be classed as a dab. "Footing: Footing will be considered to have occurred if any part of the rider

Firstly you will be welcomed with open arms i can assure you because the one thing more scarce than new land is observers. Basically the first thing is to actually know the rules and predominately that is just reading the ACU Handbook. You would be amazed how few riders ACTUALLY know the rules. They know what they think are the rules but in reality know very little or choose to interpret them to their advantage as they see fit. Talk to the CoC and they will give you a section, if you are nervous, that is easier to mark for your first time. Then take it from there. I do so wish there were more people who put something back into the sport instead of just taking out and please guys dont give me all that "i dont have the time wife / kids / work bull****. Clerks of the course and their teams "dont have the time" either the difference is they make time so the rest of you can enjoy the fruits of their efforts. So dont be so self centred be more like Johnnyboxer and offer to do your bit. To paraphrase "Dont ask what trials can do for me ask what i can do for trials"

The above post by Woody, i havent copied because it takes up too much space, is simply superb and says it all fantastic prose mate i salute you Perhaps it is time for a totally seperate Trial event to evolve ? a National series more along the lines of a trial of the early 60's with road work and sections more akin to climbs and hills like they rode in their day JUST for totally period machinery. You know the more i think about it the more it makes sense and would solve most if not all of the bickering about eligability.

I'd have fived him because his knee went down also would have fived him because he rolled back at the top of the section. This would have been irrelevant as i would have already fived him for the knee down. Hope i'm right as i didnt read this years ACU handbook now we are AMCA

Two friends of mine had them, one still has, but neither had discs fitted although as previously said they were an option back in the late 60's but to the best of my knowledge at that time, and i was competing way back then too, i never saw one in our area but they were a factory available option when you ordered your kit. Looks like i may have to amend the clubs rules again i did think think about this particular Cheetah option when i wrote the rules but as i had never actually seen one competing since the late 60's i didnt think there were any left. Just goes to prove theres always something going to bite your bum when you least expect it. You wait somebody will turn up on a monoshock OSSA next

Just come onto e bay 260962151949 Would be so illegal at so many clubs but should it be as it is original? Discuss.

Err surely that means he should have had a five then and he should be happy he got away with a two and saved three marks? Now i'm very confused

Sounds like a simple case of observer error. We all have, CoC's that is, to be gratefull of whatever we can get observer wise. Any observer is better than no observer but i totally and utterly agree that we as CoC's should do our utmost to ensure the observer knows his or her stuff. Perhaps wiggy should protest his score? Dont see how stop allowed would have meant Wiggy wouldnt have been given a 2 though. You do state "Stop allowed virtually eliminates this inconsistency" but from your own post you say that the observer was inconsistent and an inconsistent observer will still be inconsistent under stop allowed or not allowed.

Firstly i'm glad everybody had a great day out as it should be. The "arguement" only came about because as your post suggests "overwhelmingly the majority of the pre65 stuff was specialist gear" the question croped up "Do we want twinshock to go the same way as P65?" well "38mm is the route being taken with a mix of modern monoshock forks and yokes being used" well isnt this the same as what people get so up in arms about with P65? Except that you need to do something to a P65 to make it something worth riding but where do you stop? So does it matter if Twinshock follows the same path as P65? Going from the entry at the Red Rose it looks like the vote is a resounding NO!it doesnt matter. Get the welder out ! Just feels a shame to me but the riders will decide. One other thing, i know i'm going to get shot for this, were the riders on P65 as good as or better than the riders on Twinshocks or are we saying Twinshocks arent as capable as P65 bikes? Incidentally i have noticed the same thing often in our results with often the P65 and Twinshocks beating the Air Cooled monos too. Look either way a good day was had by all and thats is great well done all the organising team

Hi Javier. I dont know about you but i feel that a lot of the problems and differences of opinions, some expressed most vociferously and even worse, that have been stated in previous posts come from the fact that some people are trying to make their bikes something akin to a modern bike that they can ride in a trial where they feel they can have more sucess than riding a modern bike in a modern trial. Lets face it as woody has expressed most succintly in his previous posts P65 bikes are in their original state pretty awful things to ride and i feel most people would accept modifications that made them more desireable to ride. Now when it all goes wrong is when that amount of modification becomes modernisation. I have been trying to think of a way of describing what i mean and the nearest thing to me is this. Modify a P65 so that it's more like a 1970 Bultaco and it's about where it should be performance wise. Modernise it so it performs like a 240 Fantic pro or SWM jumbo and thats too far and it becomes something else. Remember thats only me trying to illustrate what i mean and i KNOW there will be hoards on here who will deliberately pick fault and nit pick but please read what i wrote NOT what you would like to read into it readers! I dont have any panacea to this. My only suggestion is that there should be a specials class and it should be left to the conscience of the rider to place their bike in whatever class is appropriate. They will have to live with the hollow victory that might be the outcome of running a super modernised bike out of class plus the other riders arent stupid they will know too. Thing is we all know where the line is with modification verses modernisation but it's nigh on impossible to put it into writing without getting your head shot off. This is a very good thread because it makes you think but as much as i agree with Javier that the modernisation of P65 bikes is taking us down a dead end road i just wish all the thought provoking that this thread has given had produced an answer that solved the problem.

Thanks for sharing that really enjoyed it

Generaly Morad rims are ok but DID are a bit of a problem. Incidentally why tubeless not a tubed tyre?

Get off ya monkey bike and drink yer milk.

Dave thank you for that. VERY well put. Cant and wouldnt want to fault you and your sentiments.

Couldnt say it better myself.

After a conversation i had today with a manufacturer and supplier of a lot of these upgrade and billet parts they have recieved a lot of adverse communications about the fitting of said parts. Now lets get this straight everybody is entitled to an opinion but the onus is on the rider to ensure that their machine complies fully with whatever eligability regulations are in force for the event they are entering in. People with a disposable income will always spend it how they like on whatever they like. You cant blame anybody for manufacturing something that people want to buy they are only like the rest of us trying to make ends meet. The manufacturer is not the clerk of the course if you dissagree with the rules lobby the club or CoC. Some people like to build a bike to different criteria than others and if you are honest you know that a top rider on a non trick bike will always beat a midfield rider on the trickest of trick things. Thats the beauty of trials. Anyway if the sections are laid out to suit Classic Bikes ridden in a Classic style the bling will not give you any advantage other than perhaps help with your confidence which is probably the trickest addition you could ever fit So lets be realistic if everybody wanted EXACT copies of period parts because none of the originals were available then someone would make them thats supply and demand. Oh yes and he wished that before people made statements about his products they would get their facts straight by asking him first as some have made statements that to be generous are way from the truth. Only put this on as i do see his point and felt it only right to say something. As Elton said "Dont shoot me i'm only the piano player" Lets keep discussions about the rules about the rules.

Always happy to sell you one Steve