baldilocks

Could we do something about structure and what we do? It may just be terminology but most centre level experts ride as clubman at national level and clubman at a national is nothing like clubman at a club trial. We usedto have a term called non expert but something other than clubman would do. Or call easier route at a national Expert and the top class championship or super Expert. The other issue is of course having an easier route at a national takes entries away from club events in surrounding centres. There's no doubt we have too many trials but a national event should be harder than a local event. So do we increase national severity or are we at a point where we just don't have enough better riders for harder nationals ? Or have regional harder events and ease off club trials. On a regional basis there may be enough entries to make a harder club trial type course viable ?

Maco we all know there's a few urban myths about too. It's always handy to go back and check. Thrunton Woods , a great trial, difficult by NE standards but gets an entry of almost 100 and it's pre enter. Bollihope a great trial over the years also gets very high entries. Both feature riders from other centres. Sat / weds easy or beginner trials recently less than 30 entries. It's not always the case that easy trials get more entries. Equally we have AlWinton last weekend getting 23 and Butsfield at Christmas getting 100. Both due I would suggest to events in other centres or a lack of events in other centres. I think On It above has the right idea, we need separate trials but for that we need more entries across the board. It's interesting you can't comment on clubman or expert, we are all part of the same sport. Unless we have separate events then everyones needs have to be accommodated. So whilst the easy course is fine for you by your own admission it's too much for others and from my point of view it's limiting the scope for the other courses. The ability range therefore seems too great ? Trials schools would help but some are quite open to saying they have no desire to improve. Hard to accommodate this attitude with others who do want to progress and this drives an even bigger ability gap and a gap in expectations.

The North East Centre may be hijacking this thread but it's a good case to look at in order to answer the original question. Trying to set an acceptable course for the range of ability in the North East is difficult. The easy course wasn't planned as such, it started as a white route back in the 90s so that a growing number of people who had bought twin shocks and pre65 bikes could ride a centre trial. Within a couple of years lesser riders went onto this course on modern bikes. But this course itself now has a massive range of ability. When setting a trial, for a number of years now, we have good natural sections for middle and hard course riders that we often can't use as the easy course can't have a section there. This group are driving the location of sections for the other two or three routes. People correctly state easy course is 50% of the entry. We now sometimes have expert sections which are made in easy course locations, not good sections and often just tight corners. I could say no thought goes into them at all but actually it's a compromise. I genuinely didn't realise how big the ability gap was until setting out Alwinton 2 day the first year it ran. Some easy course riders only did a lap (it was three laps on day 1 the first year) as they couldn't get round the course, riding up and down the hills round alwinton was harder than their typical section. One bloke went home having lost 8 marks in a lap of 15 sections as he said it was too hard, he was riding a cub, I still cant believe that actually happened. Someone else on the same course didn't come back for three years as he thought the easy course was a waste of time. He wanted to ride the gullies not along the bank side. This rider was in his 60s on a acm. Impossible to please everyone even with three courses. So at one end of our ability range you have Maco asking why the easy course isn't easier still. But at its current level it's a barrier to the other routes in terms of where you can have a section and just getting round the course. And then theres the uncomfortable truth , the centres harder bigger trials get the best entries ! Yes I know some venues are too much according to some, Macos friends will go practicing instead some weeks. But at the other end we have experts doing the same thing, venues which aren't suitable for them so they practice elsewhere or ride in Yorkshire / Scotland or the lakes. We actually have two clubs running beginners championships on weds nights and sat afternoons which is great but is this isnt enough for the easy course riders ? Wheres the series for just the middle course and expert riders to have sections specifically for them ? The jumps between the routes need to be manageable for people wanting to progress but there is quite a gulf and this differs week to week club to club. Some on here will know I'm Glen Quinn but for those that don't know I've been kicking round national trials finishing absolutely nowhere in terms of results for years. I'm still riding Exp in the north east centre most of the time at 49 years of age. I'm often finishing as high in North East Centre trials now as I ever have. For me the whole things gone backwards. If the sport was progressing i should be losing 30 marks, an enjoyable day out for me, on the middle course but I don't lose much more than that riding Exp in all but a couple of trials. We have another rider in his 50s riding an air cooled Yam who can ride and win an Exp course on less than 5 marks. We had one of our experts win the easy course at the Reeth 3 day recently, he lost over 50 marks. Centre to centre the variation is enormous. So I wasn't trying to boast, I'm just pointing out that our trials are no harder now for me and others in terms of marks lost than they were 20 years ago. Sections might be harder in some cases but bikes are much better. Our trials can be much easier than other centres. Then most of our trials are 4x 10 sections. So a section that's two hard or easy is a material proportion of the day. Get two or three and people are off home. One or two lap trials nobody minds a couple of sections which don't suit them. But bigger trials need more helpers / land / observers. As a centre we can do that but it's a lot of effort. So after all that I think the more we have tried to please the more problems we have actually created. This is the same across the country. Despite all the courses and championships theres still lots of unhappy riders and even more who have quit. As a sport our ability range has always required different events local, regional, national etc. Our problem is that we no longer have enough riders to make it all viable. Back to new riders then......

Has the White rose got enough entries , I've seen a couple of reminders for entries ?

I think it's a great thread by the way, as a sport we need ideas. I've had nearly 40 years riding and I'd be very sad if in 5 /10 years it's finished.

Repeat don't feed the troll!

I'm not talking particularly about ne centre John. It's great that we get 100+ entries now and again but a lot of those riders are out of centre. The thread I think is about trials in general on the back of a national championship trial and the Allan Jeffries being cancelled this year, Deryk also refers to lower club trial entries. Giving riders lots of choice is good but it has to be viable for clubs in terms of entries or entry fees will go up. However at £6000 for a bike I don't think even if entries were £20 that should be a problem.

That makes sense @Heffergm . I've got a TRS , couple of my friends have Vertigos. When we swap bikes I notice the front is very light on the vertigo and doesn't go straight as easily, so on a pile of rocks or stream the vertigo wanders more. It's probably a combination of petrol tank location, weight bias in terms of engine mounting and suspension settings. I agree that the weight bias on the TRS is more to the front.

How about rules and regulations. We've had a number of variations over the years but still can't agree as a sport on a method which can be reliably and consistently observed to determine a winner. Current favourite combination of mine is a section that can't be ridden no stop combined with a die hard no stop observer. Brilliant waste of everyone's time and money. Is moving rocks allowed, strictly no but everybody does ? Do events give a fair opportunity to all riders ? No, if it's a northern national full of slippery streams and you are in the first 30 riders you have no chance. So please explain why riders should pay to scrub sections, be late on time as a consequence and then get bollocked off the observer for moving a rock that everyone knows will be knocked out within 10 attempts at the section. Who in their right mind is going to travel for that kind of day out ? Road trials ? Please pay £6000 for a bike that's a traffic cops dream come true and then pay to enter an event where you sign to say you and your machine comply with the RTA. And if you are under 19 please bring the other 6000 bike, the 125, you have just for road trials. Lots of problems here we have put up with for years but which to a newcomer just make no sense. Daft.

Ive no doubt you mean well Deryk but go to a local skate park, go to YouTube and look up Red Bull Rampage, look at the X games, these are the kinds of events my 11 year old watches. Where people ride bikes basically down a cliff or go up concrete quarter pipes on a £70 scooter then flick turn back down the same pipe. Now imagine taking these kids to a trial like you describe, it's not inspirational for the you tube generation. Appealing to over 40s isn't the way forward. We need to rethink trials not get the rose tinted glasses on. We know what appeals to the converted but there's not enough of us left. The complexity of riding a trials bike doesn't come across in a video either. Trials videos need to focus on things you can't do on a bicycle. Most of them consist of endless rear wheel hops which can be done for a lot less cash on a bmx

Not disagreeing in particular with any of the above. However people have always left trials as they got older / found it too hard or just moved on to other things. However the difference now is that they are not being replaced by younger riders. Consequently when people get picky about what they like or don't like there aren't enough riders to make trials viable. We need to get young riders interested in trials pdq. Factories and importers still promote trials by sponsoring riders but this clearly isn't attracting new riders. However trials riders being as tight as a nats chuff makes it difficult for the trade to invest in significant promotion. Keep the ideas coming because across the UK the age profile of trials is alarming.

My TRS is now 6 months old. I changed the slide in the carb to make it a little richer. Other things that I have changed I do to other bikes like fitting Raptor pegs, Renthal bars and I've raised the gearing. I recently fitted a thinner clutch plate to make the clutch lighter but I think this is common on bikes with a diaphragm clutch such as GG, Ossa, Scorpa and Sherco. Still very impressed with it and would recommend one. No real issues to report.

Don't feed the troll.....

Agree in terms of a natural venue for a more typical UK Trial. Im absolutely against paying the FIM for the privilege. Looking at the age profile of riders in the NE Centre I'd suggest trials needs to prioritise getting new young riders interested or the next decade is going to be the last one. Money can be better spent than using it to fund a world round.

Does this legislation apply from next year if it is passed ?

trials boots are that short these days making them waterproof is pointless, it just traps the water in the boot

No the linked document says 125cc and above.

No I agree with you entirely but it's not me you need to convince. How are the bikes getting from that field to the sections?

Michelin tyres are legal for road use in the UK but not for USA / Canada. Could be done for low pressure. We haven't got a leg to stand on regarding the registration plate

The checker has a hard enough job without the crowd getting on his back. Clerk of the Course sets the sections and riders or minders should not be tampering with them. From your description it was a hard section but in the context of the whole event it may have been intended to be the trial deciding section ? Then if the trial turns out too easy people criticise the organisers. Why do spectators see observers and officials as the bad guys ? They are volunteers who create and score the event they have turned up to see? Sorry to hijack the thread

How did people replace the duff main bearings in Betas and Shercos without splitting the cases? Ossa gearbox far more unreliable but to be fair the whole cluster pulled out of the side. I'd suggest it's your point of view Lineaway but that's not the same thing as a fact.

I think suspension technology has changed in recent years. I've always ran some sag in the rear suspension but noticed my TRS fitted with a Reiger came with none. So I wound the spring back. Then I spoke to some vertigo riders who said they thought you shouldn't have sag on a Reiger. So I put it back to standard and id say it's better at clearing obstacles yet it still grips really well. Not sure this applies to the R16V but I'd give it a couple of trials first.

There's an owners manual on Trs UK site. Sorry mine has a Reiger

Richmond Motor Club put on outstanding events such as the Blue Bar two day, Gerald Simpson, Reeth 3 day, The Scott and the Crackpot Trial. On top of this they run a kids trials school and have recently ran British Champs rounds. This isn't a professional organisation, it's a band of volunteers who must put in some serious hours. IF there is an issue that you are aware of Derek then can I suggest you raise this through the appropriate channel ie the club directly. I don't think posting it on here is in anyway helpful.

Which model TRS ?