The rules you are running to are the TSR22A rules, IE a stop is allowed and not penalised. The Engine off and restart with feet up with no penalty is because the rider has the machine under control. If you dab then you are deemed to have lost control. My Son is a master at the feet up restart. Usually early in a trial because the exhaust hasn't warmed the air going into the airbox enough.

Ourian if we do away with the stop , dab stall = 5 why is this a problem from your point of view ? I dont see a logical reason to bring up the stalled engine rule other than an attempt to make the discussion more complex.

We could have rules that require forward motion regardless of engine status or a rule that says a stall is always a five. I'd rather have the former.

'We could have rules that require forward motion regardless of engine status'

Do you mean the current 'Non stop' set of rules?

By introducing a stop + dab = 5 rule into stop allowed, means that you would then have to delete, add or amend other rules to accommodate it, then you'd have someone else harping on about 'I used to be able to stop, stall the engine, balance and kick start it but now I can't without getting a 5' or the 'whats the point of having the stop,dab stall = 5 rule because I get a 5 whether the engines running or not' brigade coming out of the woodwork or the 'there used to be a penalty for an engine stall' fanatics giving their tuppence worth.

The simple solution if you were to change the stop + dab = penalty rule would be to give it a 2 or a 3

'We could have rules that require forward motion regardless of engine status'

Do you mean the current 'Non stop' set of rules?

By introducing a stop + dab = 5 rule into stop allowed, means that you would then have to delete, add or amend other rules to accommodate it, then you'd have someone else harping on about 'I used to be able to stop, stall the engine, balance and kick start it but now I can't without getting a 5' or the 'whats the point of having the stop,dab stall = 5 rule because I get a 5 whether the engines running or not' brigade coming out of the woodwork or the 'there used to be a penalty for an engine stall' fanatics giving their tuppence worth.

The simple solution if you were to change the stop + dab = penalty rule would be to give it a 2 or a 3

what about electrc bikes????????

what about electrc bikes????????

See what I mean, start changing the current rules and you get all sorts of technical complications

At a guess, if and when you twist the twist grip on an electric bike and the motor's rpm doesn't increase your either a 5 for getting off and pushing or a 3 for paddling your way out of the section.

I really don't care what rules you want to make if you go to the trouble to organize and set up a trial,I will ride without complaint as long as you're consistent with enforcement (and I don't even care if the checkers judge the rules slightly differently,I will adapt to each section's checkers as necessary) I have greatly enjoyed myself at both kinds of trials.

Gentlemen we are getting sidetracked. I'll repeat my challenge. Can anyone defend the Stop Dab ?

Feet up stop would still be allowed engine running or not.

Foot down stop would be a 5 engine running or not.

This would solve the issue of electric bikes. I had the same thought as JRsunt.

Edited December 17, 201411 yr by twinshocked

Not sure what you mean by "defending it" the rules have been in place for many years they are documented there are even videos to help you understand them. I am assuming a committee worked on the rules and they where voted into effect. I don't see why they need to be "defended" especially years after the decision has been made... but maybe I am just getting caught up in semantics.

When I started in trials there where no trials events being put on in the local area (within 1,000 km or so), being new to the sport I looked around for a rule book and found the Canadian WTC rule book I contacted the WTC to find out about insurance for events and what was involved in putting on events then I started putting on events using the rule book. My feeling is that as long as everyone knows what rules your event is following and they are fairly enforced (we ride on an honour system) then you could really use whatever rules you like. The 5 second rule is a great example as far as I know the WTC just made it up (I voted on it representing my area) but all the riders here have been happy to adhere to it and I was never asked to defend it (I really just think people are happy to now have 3 or 4 events a year to participate in for free). Now other riders are starting to put on events in the area but we use the same WTC rules for all the events.

If I did have to defend the stop and dab, I would say it makes for good fun (fewer 5s), it is super easy to understand, it is simple to enforce, and it is well documented in the rule book. What more would you like in a rule?

The only confusion I have found is with people that come back to the sport after many years of not having events and are used to the older no stop rules.

Edited December 17, 201411 yr by michael_t

The all day dab came to indoor rules first and then to the world rounds. It really was not intended as a fair rule. It was to keep the competition close. As in the other boys could not compete with number one. It was not intended to keep new riders from getting fives. But that is the problem it created.

Do I dare say that is how the new World Round rules came from too?

Under stop allowed rules a stop + dab = 1 point.

There's also a rule which says a stop + dab + engine stall = 5

Twinshocked would like to change the stop + dab rule to = 5, this would make the stop + dab + engine stall rule obsolete and therefore no penalty could ever be incurred for an engine stall.

Unless a new rule was included which says stop + engine stall = 5

But it's stop allowed rules so why should you incur a penalty for stopping , it makes no sense, like you say if you can clear the section with a stalled engine = no penalty.

The irony is what are you going to call the new set of rules? Stop allowed or stop allowed only whilst the engine is running.

If engine stalled, no support other that tires! You may restart if balanced, not on skidplate as support or dab!

So, short of actually landing a few feet from the bike, how does one lose a 5 in America then?

If you rode a modern bike on some of the stuff here, you would understand! If riding ITSA on the TLR, you would not!

OK so the stop + dab = 1 came about because some whiny little twit couldn't ride as good as the number 1 rider and felt he should have a medal for showing up?

My problem with the "all day dab" is the rider is no longer in control, he is now a kickstand and your bike can do that without your input (after the kickstand is down or bike leaned on tree)

Stop without support (engine running or dead) = balance and control = 0

Stop WITH support (engine running or dead) = NO balance and NO control = 5

(IDGAF about electric bikes because I have yet to see ANY ride local events, adjust rules if necessary when they FINALLY show up after I am long dead)

Keep reverse motion = 5 (this will satisfy those that want only 1 attempt at an obstacle)

All rules observation comes down to the observer, there will always be slight discrepancy and differing opinions, and benefit of the doubt goes to the rider. In this case "I was balanced but as my foot came down I gassed it and moved 6 inches and then put foot back on peg so I only get a one, because I was moving when I footed" IDGAF about these situations because they will be few and far between.

Most important would be consistent observing.

If we changed to this system of rules it would once again force riders to learn to ride the damn bike.

OK rant over

Not sure what you mean by "defending it" the rules have been in place for many years they are documented there are even videos to help you understand them. I am assuming a committee worked on the rules and they where voted into effect. I don't see why they need to be "defended" especially years after the decision has been made... but maybe I am just getting caught up in semantics.

When I started in trials there where no trials events being put on in the local area (within 1,000 km or so), being new to the sport I looked around for a rule book and found the Canadian WTC rule book I contacted the WTC to find out about insurance for events and what was involved in putting on events then I started putting on events using the rule book. My feeling is that as long as everyone knows what rules your event is following and they are fairly enforced (we ride on an honour system) then you could really use whatever rules you like. The 5 second rule is a great example as far as I know the WTC just made it up (I voted on it representing my area) but all the riders here have been happy to adhere to it and I was never asked to defend it (I really just think people are happy to now have 3 or 4 events a year to participate in for free). Now other riders are starting to put on events in the area but we use the same WTC rules for all the events.

If I did have to defend the stop and dab, I would say it makes for good fun (fewer 5s), it is super easy to understand, it is simple to enforce, and it is well documented in the rule book. What more would you like in a rule?

The only confusion I have found is with people that come back to the sport after many years of not having events and are used to the older no stop rules.

Micael t, when I ask for someone to "defend it" I am asking for someone to tell me why in sporting terms why Stop Dab is only one point. I have the opposite view so I am trying to understand the other side.

When I say in "Sporting Terms" I mean from judging the athletic performance of a rider in a given section.

By the way congrats on getting Trials going up in Nova Scotia. It couldn't have been easy. I am not asking you to change anything. Do what ever works for you and just keep on riding.

I am talking about the rules for US Nationals.

Rules evolve in all sports and governing bodies must try and adapt to keep their sport current and fair.

So far no one offered a good defense for Stop Dab = only 1

Edited December 17, 201411 yr by twinshocked

OK, for the sake of argument I'll try.

Allowing stop dab with engine running might keep some senior or weaker riders, who might not have the ability or stamina to ride all the sections non stop, competing. It could also help encourage some novice level riders to step up and ride the clubman lines.

Personally I think the real problem with judging a stop will always be the observers difficulty determining when a momentary stop has occurred.

Defend the all day day...... perhaps its good for getting you out of the dodah when your on the point of no return. Other than that it has no place in outdoor trials, whether its club or british championship. It de-values a proper 1 dab ride.

OK, for the sake of argument I'll try.

Allowing stop dab with engine running might keep some senior or weaker riders, who might not have the ability or stamina to ride all the sections non stop, competing. It could also help encourage some novice level riders to step up and ride the clubman lines.

Personally I think the real problem with judging a stop will always be the observers difficulty determining when a momentary stop has occurred.

Good points. To encourage entry level riders (kids/novice) local club trials we should only count dabs, out of bounds and falls.

But, for US National Championship events the level of riding is higher and the standard should be higher.