sparks2

Woody Do you think the steel liners are as effective as cast iron? Regards Sparks

A good few years ago, worked with a chap, who went out and bought a 1930's Brough Superior, big money of course. Could hardly ride a bike and certainly wouldn't listen to advice from me. First maintenance job - changed the oil for Castrol R. I couldn't believe it at the time either. Regards Sparks

Hi Good information, Thanks for posting Martin. Regards Sparks

He only made one. And that was twin downtube.

No, beats me A close copy of the standard frame but plated and with bronze welded I think. Have seen similar footrests on Whitlock frames so that may be a clue. Regards Sparks2

Hi Jerry Yes, it depends on the validity of the information one can find and the interpretation one can put on it (as people have found on Trials Central in the past). There will always be a degree of conjecture when it comes to frame numbers, dates of manufacture and dates of UK registration. However it is not inconceivable that the first of the 'improved' Mk1's were batch built towards the end of 1968, then have been on sale at the earliest in the UK 2 to 3 months later, then sold as required throughout the following months? The delay between build and the first UK registrations could perhaps be explained by the importers clearing existing stock, the time on the water, etc, etc. Hence, as I initially pointed out, dates of manufacture and UK registration may differ by a considerable margin. Hope all this helps (and is interesting). Regards sparks2

Thanks Woody That could be helpful and is very encouraging. Regards Sparks

Hi Jerry As you may have seen from a later thread (Early Cota Club) I have gone / going through much the same process - early Cota restoration then hopefully road registration. In my opinion your Cota is of the later 'improved' Mk1 type with Amal carb and modified gearbox, not available before March 1969. The previous version had an IRZ carb and different inlet tract. Indeed, I have seen an earlier frame number than yours registered in September 1969. So I would suggest yours would have been registered about the same time. At this time practically all trials bikes were registered for the road. Although date of manufacture may differ from date of registration by some way. Hi Woody At this time (1968/1969) Sandifords were only Montesa dealers, not the importers. So it is unlikely they will provide a definative age (assuming the bike was not supplied by Sandifords as a dealer). The importers at the time were Montala Motors from Dartford Kent, aka the Brise family. A good many years ago I spoke to John Brise's surviving son - Tim Brise about the Montesa days -- he still then owned an earlyish Montesa Cota but could confirm that no records then existed (presumably all destroyed) from Montala Motors. The latest thinking is that the VMCC do not have a Montesa specialist (but I have not checked this myself). So the outlook is not promising for those of us looking to register/re-register an early Cota with no paperwork or plate. However I am determined that, if at all possible, my Cota will wear it's original registration number. Hi Jon The arrangement whereby Sandifords would supply the Northern half of the country and Montala Motors the Southern half started in late 1972 and finished with Sandifords taking over completely in early 1973, lasting only about 6 months. Keep in touch Kind Regards Sparks2

Chris ..... Thanks for your comment. Supermotoscot ....... I cannot add further to Chris's reply. Regards Sparks

Banned !! ........ Banned !!!!! ............ Reminds me of the time I was banned from.................. The Computer Club, a personal tragedy at the time but I got over it. Yes, you should get on with yours, they are a good little bike, I could say almost better in some respects than another well known Spanish brand begining with B. Don't forget we are not a million mies away from the 50th anniversary of the Cota's introduction. Q1. Yes, weld a bracket to the lower frame and modify a Bultaco/generic tensioner. Q2. Student. A question the other way. Jon, did you recover your reg number? --- ( I think it was you, asking the VMCC). On mine, a previous numpty binned all the paperwork AND the plate, then couldn't assemble the gearbox properly before moving on. My guess would be that the bike was used on the road in the 70's and/or 80's so will be on the DVLA comp. So I would say that any DVLA VIN check will throw up the correct 'H' suffix registration number. Suggested best course of action ........ anyone ????? Regards Sparks

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't aware but I am now, I wiil remember when I need that adrenalin rush.

Hi Scot I bought a brand new Cota MkV in June 1973. At the time I thought it was a great bike, compared to what I had been riding. Well finished with lots of soft controllable power, a low centre of gravity for stability and comfortably sprung. The steering would be now thought of as more modern than the Bultaco. It was pretty good on the road, snick into 5th, and it went like a rocket (for the time). However, I cannot say that it was significantly better in any area than the opposition (Bultaco and Ossa). Mainly, it was just what you were used to at the time. The only main troubles I had were self inflicted:- A 'roler spline' came adrift in the gearbox - caused by clutchless changes. And I filled it with stream water necessitating a change of big end and mains. I often wish I had kept it instead of putting the equity into a disappointing British Leyland car that followed, still you can't have everything Kind Regards Sparks2

I've joined the Early Cota Club. What da ya think.

Hi I think I remember Howard at the very start of his career riding in the early seventies in the North Western Centre, on a then very old BSA C15T, I seem to recall. Are we saying that he joined the Army in later years ??

Very interesting On my M80 the frame and engine numbers differ by 5 or 6. Could the machines at the time have been built and exported with the same numbers, but then have been broken down by Comerfords in the UK to be sold in kit form to avoid purchase tax, the forrunner of VAT ? Perhaps Comerfords were then less than careful when it came to which engine and frame went out the door at a particular time. VAT was introduced in the UK on April 1st 1973 so theory only holds good before this date. Your thoughts please Regards Sparks2

Bsa Bantam D1

well said woody

Hi Just read this topic with interest. I too love the look of the M49 and M80 slimline and have a slimline myself. But as an aside, I was riding in trials myself in 1969/1970 and do not remember a 'Kit Campeon' being marketed in the UK (to upgrade the later M49 to M80 spec). What I do remember is a Sammy Miller conversion kit to do the same job (obviously not the full Hi- Boy full frame conversion). Had Mr Miller persuaded Bultaco not to market the Kit Campeon in UK in deference to his own ? I could be wrong here but your opinions would be welcome. Regards Sparks

Well said Woody

Hi I would agree with what most have said - an early M49 with a later homerlite tank seat unit fitted. KEN 65G is a Bury (Greater Manchester) number from 1968/1969 so, almost certainly, the bike would have been supplied new by Jim Sandiford. In my opinion the Miller connection is just a red herring. Regards Sparks2

Hi all Jon - I wouldn't take all that Don Morley has written as the gospel truth. Regards Sparks

Hi The early Dalesman production frames (1969) were nickel plated. Hence the colour silver in the logbook. The plating deteriorates over the years and has probably been re-placed by a painted finish. To the best of my knowledge Jim Lee died many years ago. Is the second owner in the logbook a Mr Anthony Roberts? Regards Sparks

Hi Greeves and all contributors Nice bike, hope it will make a good and fairly easy restoration. Never realised that these early Montesas were so well thought of. I have a similar model with the early large hubs and white frame. It's frame number is several hundred earlier than yours so I would guess that would make it a 1969. Came to me a good while ago with an incorrectly assembled gear selection index system. It will need a new piston to make it a runner and perhaps a correctly painted tank seat unit. Perhaps I should spend some time and resources getting it sorted? Regards Sparks2

Hi Having owned and ridden a Villiers Sprite eons ago I have followed this thread with interest throughout. Whilst not wishing to get drawn into any controversy, maybe I could add a couple of points of interest. Having read the comment on the ERW tubing I would add that my frame was of all brazed construction, the brazing quality being top notch - of comparable quality to the Rickmans I would say. An extraordinary detail for a product built down to a price. I have an old green log book for a Sprite registered new on 19th May 1966 with the frame number 271. If frame number 23 was supplied 6th November 1964, this would suggest that 248 frames were produced in the 18 month period between Nov '64 and May '66. An average of about 14 a month. Charlie - I may have missed something - but is a frame kit just a frame to which you would add your own engine, wheels, forks etc. Or a complete kit to build a complete bike - Is there any way of knowing? What is Frank H doing these days? Have I heard his name in connection with the manufacture of domestic CH boilers? Regards Sparks