Just read through the whole lot of this..... Am I alone in wondering where trials bike development is going to go in the next 5 years ? What more can the manufacturers do in reality ? Is it going to be like Concorde ?

well they could start with fuel injection that works at about 800rpm rather than 1800rpm, I think this is why the Mont wont recover grip, it cant go slow enough on the over run when you shut it off.

Tank under the seat as sherco are doing would be good if it runs ok

just two ideas

Just read through the whole lot of this..... Am I alone in wondering where trials bike development is going to go in the next 5 years ? What more can the manufacturers do in reality ? Is it going to be like Concorde ?

People have been saying that about bike/car/whatever development for 100 years. Of course they will keep getting better and manufacturing costs will keep coming down. Trials bike will never be like Concorde, because they are developed to satisfy a real demand.

Back to the original point-

No 2010 montesa bike- there will be no more = no more Montesa

Montesa factory only has 40 engines left- no more

Tony Bou will ride 2009 bikes next year in a satelite team backed by Repsol money - not Honda

I have been told this by a reputable reliable source

Edited September 25, 200916 yr by pedronicman

there will be a montesa available , with little or no changes . 40 engines not in bikes ? probably true.

but several hundred available in new bikes . the 315 had no changes for 2004 !

Lets not forget the reason why Honda went the 4-stroke route? Wasn't it because all trials bike manufacturers were supposed to go 4-stroke?

That's a good point, but historically Honda have always hated 2-strokes and favoured 4-strokes. Remember when in GP racing they decided to take on the 500 strokers with huge amounts of cash and improbable engineering with the oval pistonned NR500? Whilst it was alsways clear that 2-strokes days were numbered in GP racing, Honda were at the forefront of pressure to move to 4-stroke machinery.

However, the general movement to 4-stroke machinery (or more accurately, AWAY from stinkwheels!) is legislative, and environmentally led. It's ineavitable that even our tiny minority will come under emission scrutiny. This, for me, is the clue as to where bike design goes in the next 5 years or so and thereover hangs an ominous cloud.

I come from a background in an electronics/ software automotive consultancy, largely engine control. The (economically) viable way to manage emissions is to control what goes in and to monitor and control the burn. The hydrocarbon emissions from a stroker are always going to be a problem, so 4-stroke is inevitable if we are forced this way (and that looks likely). In order to manage the emissions, you need to monitor a number of conditions; exhaust gases, intake temperature, atmospheric temperature, manifold pressure etc etc. Then you have to process it...

Baldilocks pointed out the shortcomings in the injection at 800rpm. Whilst I cannot comment as I've never ridden a 4RT, or any other 4-stroke trials bike, I am not surprised. To accurately control the fuelling and ignition, particualrly at low rpm, you need a fair chunk of processing power, and as much input as you can wire in. Any compromises to the input system will reduce the quality of the output.

This comes at a price. One price is weight, which seems to be an issue to some on the 4RT. But the biggest price to pay is development time and costs. Road bikes are only now getting decent injection. They suffer from extremely short model lifespans limitting development time. The fact that we have had 10 years of fuel injection means there is enough experience to iron the issues. But think how many road bikes have been sold to amortise that cost. A trials bike is going to have some very unique requirements and I simply cannot see a manufacturer committing the development budget to it. Unless we benefit from the spin-off from single pot enduro bikes, we will have compromised bikes, or worse, no bikes at all. Even if we do, they will almost certainly be heavier and more complex.

I don't want to sound gloomy, but I suspect this may well have a lot to do with Honda's withdrawal. Let's hope we can keep our carbs for a bit longer yet!

Graham

Back to the original point-

No 2010 montesa bike- there will be no more = no more Montesa

Montesa factory only has 40 engines left- no more

Tony Bou will ride 2009 bikes next year in a satelite team backed by Repsol money - not Honda

I have been told this by a reputable reliable source

From what I heard from our importer in Sweden is that the bikes sold in 2010 will be 2009 bikes, same plastics and everything. If that is because they are shutting down or developing a new bike for 2011 I don't know. I hope it's the latter

People have been saying that about bike/car/whatever development for 100 years. Of course they will keep getting better and manufacturing costs will keep coming down. Trials bike will never be like Concorde, because they are developed to satisfy a real demand.

Maybe using Concorde as an example wasnt a good idea,what I was meaning is that now its gone it takes twice as long to cross the Atlantic and look as though it will stay that way.All of the talk about the makers not updating the bikes so often,not supporting the Scottish or pulling out of trials altogether makes me wonder if if the modern bikes have gone far enough ? If you look at the diminishing sales and low turnout compared to the current twinshock scene you have to question where its going.

I hope it does pick up,but modern bikes are generally miles better than the people that ride them apart from the gifted few at the top - but it all has to come back to money,will there be enough bikes sold to keep it going? Better EFI and the under tank seat may be seen as improvements but both are minor tweaking and will come along - I was looking for major changes like the first mono's or disc brakes.

Edited September 25, 200916 yr by jon v8

I hate to say it but maybe next quantum leap in design will be electric (god for bid as a love my 4rt exhaust note)

I think the rpm issue on the 4rt is that the injection was the firts in the world to run without the need of a battery - the high rpm is to generate enough current to power it all. I must add that having ridden with injection the thougt of going back to a carburetor with all tha associated variation in performance and extra manitenance is off putting

But the biggest price to pay is development time and costs.

If it comes to it the Trial bike manufacture's would need to come together on this one to design a system which is universal with there diffrent engine specs,as you say if they go solo on this it would be cutains.

From what I heard from our importer in Sweden is that the bikes sold in 2010 will be 2009 bikes, same plastics and everything. If that is because they are shutting down or developing a new bike for 2011 I don't know. I hope it's the latter

Ludde, your importer is correct. The reason is that there are many leftover 2009 bikes. Honda is doing the same with many other models they have in overstock.

That's a good point, but historically Honda have always hated 2-strokes and favoured 4-strokes. Remember when in GP racing they decided to take on the 500 strokers with huge amounts of cash and improbable engineering with the oval pistonned NR500? Whilst it was alsways clear that 2-strokes days were numbered in GP racing, Honda were at the forefront of pressure to move to 4-stroke machinery.

However, the general movement to 4-stroke machinery (or more accurately, AWAY from stinkwheels!) is legislative, and environmentally led. It's ineavitable that even our tiny minority will come under emission scrutiny. This, for me, is the clue as to where bike design goes in the next 5 years or so and thereover hangs an ominous cloud.

I come from a background in an electronics/ software automotive consultancy, largely engine control. The (economically) viable way to manage emissions is to control what goes in and to monitor and control the burn. The hydrocarbon emissions from a stroker are always going to be a problem, so 4-stroke is inevitable if we are forced this way (and that looks likely). In order to manage the emissions, you need to monitor a number of conditions; exhaust gases, intake temperature, atmospheric temperature, manifold pressure etc etc. Then you have to process it...

Baldilocks pointed out the shortcomings in the injection at 800rpm. Whilst I cannot comment as I've never ridden a 4RT, or any other 4-stroke trials bike, I am not surprised. To accurately control the fuelling and ignition, particualrly at low rpm, you need a fair chunk of processing power, and as much input as you can wire in. Any compromises to the input system will reduce the quality of the output.

This comes at a price. One price is weight, which seems to be an issue to some on the 4RT. But the biggest price to pay is development time and costs. Road bikes are only now getting decent injection. They suffer from extremely short model lifespans limitting development time. The fact that we have had 10 years of fuel injection means there is enough experience to iron the issues. But think how many road bikes have been sold to amortise that cost. A trials bike is going to have some very unique requirements and I simply cannot see a manufacturer committing the development budget to it. Unless we benefit from the spin-off from single pot enduro bikes, we will have compromised bikes, or worse, no bikes at all. Even if we do, they will almost certainly be heavier and more complex.

I don't want to sound gloomy, but I suspect this may well have a lot to do with Honda's withdrawal. Let's hope we can keep our carbs for a bit longer yet!

Graham

Good post Graham. Thank you. The EFI developed on the Montesa are now being seen on the MX-Off-Road line which will soon be all EFI. I think we can safely assume the the costs were spread over a range of models because the return from the trials market alone would not seem to be enough to make it worthwhile.

Back to the original point-

No 2010 montesa bike- there will be no more = no more Montesa

Montesa factory only has 40 engines left- no more

Tony Bou will ride 2009 bikes next year in a satelite team backed by Repsol money - not Honda

I have been told this by a reputable reliable source

Can you tell me how does a company that uses "Just in Time" manufacturing end up with 40 extra engines?

Can you tell me how does a company that uses "Just in Time" manufacturing end up with 40 extra engines?

Could be that they are just waiting for the stocks of finished bikes to go down and then resume when the demand grows. Just pushing the cost of production forwards as long as they can, hoping that people will start buying cars and bikes again.

Could be that they are just waiting for the stocks of finished bikes to go down and then resume when the demand grows. Just pushing the cost of production forwards as long as they can, hoping that people will start buying cars and bikes again.

Yes, I think you are right in general about waiting for demand to return,but I dont believe there is even 1 extra engine there.

Edited September 25, 200916 yr by for artie

Tony Bou will ride 2009 bikes next year in a satelite team backed by Repsol money - not Honda

I have been told this by a reputable reliable source

What you claim seems to be the opposite of what the "Team Manager speaks" says.

Who is right, you or him?