New Model From Montesa..... When?

[big john]

Time for a sequel to "The Four Stroke Finale"?

Wayne....

Ha Ha, I know just the man to write it!

Tommy Sandham...

Big John

[wayne_weedon]

Ha Ha, I know just the man to write it!

Big John

Yep! I must get my copy off the shelf and read it again, I found it a facinating read the 1st few times Probably will again.

At least it seems Honda are less prone to crushing the HRC bikes like they reputably did in the past?

Wayne....

Edited September 22, 2009 by wayne_weedon

[toofasttim]

Wrong.

Steve left because he was offered a mega bucks (at the time) deal with Fantic, then got the rough end of the stick with them to ensure Michaud kept winning World crowns, remember the SSDT debacle where Fantic "forgot" to bring his bike?? No question Steve would have won the worlds the following year on the Honda, that's why Fantic signed him.

Eddy didn't retire, he had at least a season with Merlin after Honda.

I stand corrected in this matter. However I stand by my assertion that Honda have never left the sport since '74 and have had trials bikes in production since '74 (see thread in 'general").

[ludde]

Can't agree on your thoughts on adapting to 4-strokes though. Takes about 10 minutes, no difference from changing from one make of bike to another. A lot is made of the difference in technique that is required. It was never an issue before the 4RT, certainly isn't an issue in the enduro world where riders regularly change from 2 to 4-stroke. I ride my C15 exactly the same way as I ride a Bult, Ossa or KT. Only real differences are you have to hold the throttle open a little longer on climbs, a 2-stroke can be shut off earlier due to less engine braking to carry you over the top, together with engine braking in general. Much is made of using 4-stroke torque and riding off lower revs to gain grip. When a section starts in a rut and goes straight up a 40 foot climb of UK snotty mud there is only one approach - full throttle, let the rear tyre burn through for grip in as high a gear as possible. Try pulling low revs and you won't make the start cards, never mind the ends cards on 2 or 4-stroke.

I've no idea why Honda are reportedly pulling the plug again, but the 4RT is now very expensive to buy and is not really a good bike for non-experts, at least not in muddy conditions. I know of several good national riders who have sold them as they cannot get them to grip in muddy conditions. These are national standard riders, not beginners. They know how to ride. The power, at least on the earlier bikes was too snappy, even with soft mapping and they spin up easily at low throttle and this punishes a beginner badly. There are easier bikes to ride, 200, 125 etc. Many riders don't need 250 upwards. I've no idea of sales figures but know of a lot of people who didn't buy another 4RT (me included) so maybe it is falling sales that have influenced a decision by Honda. Certainly can't be the lack of success at WTC.

If you can switch between a C15, Ossa, and a modern bike without any problems I have to congratulate you, because I can't. In the family we have a Cub, B40, RTL250S, and two 4RTs. When I switch from my 4RT to my RTL it takes my half a day to adapt, mainly because of the chassis but also because the engine isn't as snappy and powerful. And the B40 is even worse, that engine is a big lump and snappy isn't the word I would use to describe it.

We almost never have any really snotty mud climbs or long grass banks here in Sweden so I can't comment on that. When we have very muddy conditions (not that often) I usually use third gear and as much throttle as possible, or third gear and low to medium revs and wring out as much torque as possible. But that said I would like a bit more practice in the mud. I used to be good at that but the last years the sections are made up by rocks and boulders. Maybe I should go to southern UK over the winter

[ludde]

undoubtedly there have been fewer new 4rt at trials a couple of influencing factors..

price.. trials riders are tight they moan 10 quid is too much for a days sport never mind 6k plus for a bike..

alternative choices... originally there was one the 4rt then the countrys most numerous brand ( beta) started knocking out a 4T. ..

the world wide recession.. new bikes are a cash rich societys niche market of a niche market in the recession that cash dries up (i'd hazard that the majority of new bikes are bout by 35 years + married males with familys who dont work as teachers doctors or other recesssion proof occupations)

everyone has ridden 2t and changing to a 4t is a big thing.. simply put people dont care for change they may want it desire it but actually doing it is another thing altogether.. smokings bad but people do, pollutions bad but people do, organic foods are good but we stick to bad foods ... we dont change simple..

and thats why no body is buying a new mont

Here in Sweden the 4T trials bike cost as much as, if not less, than the 4T mx and enduro bikes. That's not bad for low volume bike.

I have to ask. Do any of you think that Dougie and Dibs switching to 2T again has influenced the sales of 4T in the UK? In Sweden all but one rider in the championship class rides a GasGas (there are just 7 riders). And I think because of that GasGas is the biggest brand in Sweden.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Ludde

[bilc0]

Here in Sweden the 4T trials bike cost as much as, if not less, than the 4T mx and enduro bikes. That's not bad for low volume bike.

I have to ask. Do any of you think that Dougie and Dibs switching to 2T again has influenced the sales of 4T in the UK?

I think you can include Alex in those names,when he was riding the TRW 4T he's results did'nt seem to be as good as when he ride's the 2T,people that are out looking to buy a new bike pick up on this.

When people say it's because the price is to high to pay for a new 4RT thats rubbish,if someone really wants such a bike there pay for it,dare i say for the clubman rider the 4RT is old hat.

[scorpa4banger]

You cant ride a 4RT like a modern 2 stroke, my old Sherpa T could be ridden like a TL 250 or TLR 250 but a 4RT, Sherco and the Scorpa 250F all have large amounts of engine braking and unless your clutching and riding stop start at the top level, for most grades modern 4 strokes are a harder bike to ride requiring you to muscle the bike through sections more than a modern 2 stroke. That is from my experience riding a 05 Repsol a fair bit and owning a 07 Sy250F, I would say the Beta 300 with the race cam rides more like a 2 stroke though it has very little lag in the throttle and has very steep power curves when you wind on the power and dosnt have very much engine braking which makes it an awesome bike to ride..

[nigel dabster]

I think you can include Alex in those names,when he was riding the TRW 4T he's results did'nt seem to be as good as when he ride's the 2T,people that are out looking to buy a new bike pick up on this.

When people say it's because the price is to high to pay for a new 4RT thats rubbish,if someone really wants such a bike there pay for it,dare i say for the clubman rider the 4RT is old hat.

Alexz had an injury when he was on the TRW montesa, surgery was necessary. You can't blame the bike solely.

[the addict]

I hope Honda keep making them and if not bring out another 2 stroke which I think even if pricey would sell loads. I've had a 4rt for 2 years now and love riding it, its build quality is exceptional and has never ever let me down,first kick start everytime and runs sweet any time of the year. I've been busy this year so not managed to do as many events as I would have liked and no Nationals at all, the Mont has been a godsend this year as maintenance on the 4rt is a 3-5 min job. I hope to do alot of trials next year though and with the dreaded winter coming I,m eyeing up a 250 EVO for December onwards. I like many have struggled with grip on the Mont but only in certain conditions, if theres water about in the mud it grips like a tractor,great in the dry but real slippy going its a nightmare. You see less and less 4rt's at trials these days, yes price has a effect on that but also the reputation of lack of grip I think is its biggest downfall.

[ludde]

I'm just wondering if it really is the 4T engine that's the problem. Seem to remember from articles and interviews that the old Hondas, like the 360 and RTL250 were really good in mud, if you knew how to ride them properly like Lejeune and Saunders. So what has happend? Is the modern 2T engine more like an old 4T than the 4RT in terms of grip?

I'm thinking maybe it's a chassis problem. The 4RT has the longest swing arm in history, I think all the other brands have shorter ones. And the old 4T bikes had very short swing arms and hugh fork angles. Is the Sherco and Beta 4T also rubbish in mud?

Edited September 24, 2009 by Ludde

[jimmyl]

4rt chassis is very similar to 315's and swing arm is identical. I think modern 2 stroke technique of high revs and clutch just don't work on the 4rt motor. Maybe the high torgue at low revs don't suit this technique. If you keep the engine pulling they grip superb but once it spins you seem stuffed.

[for artie]

Has nothing to do with bike sales.....Honda wants World Championships and Trials Championships are the cheapest compared to any other form of motorcycle racing!

......and its the only world championship Honda wins these days

Edited September 24, 2009 by for artie

[gizza5]

Lets not forget the reason why Honda went the 4-stroke route? Wasn't it because all trials bike manufacturers were supposed to go 4-stroke?

They took the step or was it a gamble as 2-strokes are still here and maybe due to lack of 4RT sales no future development or going back to 2-stroke?

Might of been a whole different story if we were all on 4-strokes I would hazard a guess that the Mont would be a massive seller!!!!!

[the addict]

From what I have found, I think the high torque of the engine creates the grip problems, with a two stroke initial setting off especially in high gears loads the motor alot, you dont get this with the 4rt it just goes and spins, I did find stepping on the back brake on take off did load the engine enough to stop it spinning but it was'nt always possible at times. Stick a 2 stroke in 3rd and pull up a bank, it struggles but grips because of it,do the same on the Mont and it spins on the spot. Another point as Jimmy stated once you loose grip your coming backwards and going nowhere, it wont burn up and recover like a two stroke too much to turn to instantly light it up.

Edited September 24, 2009 by The Addict

[jon v8]

Just read through the whole lot of this..... Am I alone in wondering where trials bike development is going to go in the next 5 years ? What more can the manufacturers do in reality ? Is it going to be like Concorde ?