jools Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 It comes down to cost really. If you remember between '05 & '07 when they were Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowbrow Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 They kind of did and didn't Dabster. After Eddy & Steve went off the boil they didn't have any up and coming riders so they just lowered their involvement. They didn't chuck it in. Just went low key. That's my take on it but they've had bikes of various abilities in production since '74. Eddy retired, but Steve had no choice; Honda quit. There's many like me who think Steve would've been No1 if Honda had stayed with it another year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Eddy retired, but Steve had no choice; Honda quit. There's many like me who think Steve would've been No1 if Honda had stayed with it another year. Wrong. Steve left because he was offered a mega bucks (at the time) deal with Fantic, then got the rough end of the stick with them to ensure Michaud kept winning World crowns, remember the SSDT debacle where Fantic "forgot" to bring his bike?? No question Steve would have won the worlds the following year on the Honda, that's why Fantic signed him. Eddy didn't retire, he had at least a season with Merlin after Honda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowbrow Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Maybe I've been mislead, but in that case it begs the question, why did Eddie leave unless Honda pulled out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Why isn't it the best trials bike? They sure know how to make there bike's classic before there time. With a warehouse full of new 4RT's to sell and they have there 4RT part's under the heading of historical part's,this amuses me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Maybe I've been mislead, but in that case it begs the question, why did Eddie leave unless Honda pulled out? In 1986 Honda were pulling out of trials again at WTC level, Saunders went to Fantic for the 1987 season but Lejeune still had one year left on his contract so continued with the RTL for the 1987 season and went to Merlin in 1988 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 They kind of did and didn't Dabster. After Eddy & Steve went off the boil they didn't have any up and coming riders so they just lowered their involvement. They didn't chuck it in. Just went low key. That's my take on it but they've had bikes of various abilities in production since '74. They didn't go off the boil, Steve finished 2nd in 1986, Lejeune I think was 3rd. Although both were well placed for another crack in 1987, both lost the chance to win the '86 title at the last round, particularly Lejeune who was way down the results. Who knows when Honda made the final decision to quit, but after 3 titles with Lejeune on the twinshock, perhaps two years with no title was deemed a failure by Honda, maybe hastening a decision that was already being planned. For '87 Steve went to Fantic, Eddie rode his last season on the RTL and went to Merlin after. No real Honda factory involvement in WTC until the 315 almost 10 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne_weedon Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Time for a sequel to "The Four Stroke Finale"? Wayne.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Oh come on! The weight isn't the problem, all the four-strokes weigh about the same. Compared to two-strokes they are all fat lasses. And before you write off the 4rt completely I hope you have tested the '09 which is ALOT better than the previous models. The fork angle isn't as steep as before, the rear suspension is new, and the engine is super smooth and yet it feels more powerful.I think the biggest problem for all the four-strokes is that riders don't give themself enough time to adjust to riding a four-stroke. You have to change your riding style and adapt, and you can't do that in only a year. In my opinion it takes at least two years to adapt youself to the four-stroke engine. I have had a 4rt for four years now and now I feel I can use the engine properly. Now I don't like two-strokes any more, especially not the GasGas. It's to bouncy and unstable and the engine is to aggresive. The 4rt is a competitve club man bike, I just wish that people would stop writing it off before they know how to use it properly. Why isn't it the best trials bike? I agree with you on the weight issue, I'm staggered anyone can consider any modern trials bike too heavy. The 4RT may be a little front end biased as regards weight whch gives the front a heavy feel, like Betas (not tried an Evo) but overall weight isn't an issue. That only matters to the WTC and top National championship riders who have to throw them up things that good national riders and below can only gawp at. Most riders could save themselves a lot of money on weight saving gimmicks and get the weight off themselves instead. Can't agree on your thoughts on adapting to 4-strokes though. Takes about 10 minutes, no difference from changing from one make of bike to another. A lot is made of the difference in technique that is required. It was never an issue before the 4RT, certainly isn't an issue in the enduro world where riders regularly change from 2 to 4-stroke. I ride my C15 exactly the same way as I ride a Bult, Ossa or KT. Only real differences are you have to hold the throttle open a little longer on climbs, a 2-stroke can be shut off earlier due to less engine braking to carry you over the top, together with engine braking in general. Much is made of using 4-stroke torque and riding off lower revs to gain grip. When a section starts in a rut and goes straight up a 40 foot climb of UK snotty mud there is only one approach - full throttle, let the rear tyre burn through for grip in as high a gear as possible. Try pulling low revs and you won't make the start cards, never mind the ends cards on 2 or 4-stroke. I've no idea why Honda are reportedly pulling the plug again, but the 4RT is now very expensive to buy and is not really a good bike for non-experts, at least not in muddy conditions. I know of several good national riders who have sold them as they cannot get them to grip in muddy conditions. These are national standard riders, not beginners. They know how to ride. The power, at least on the earlier bikes was too snappy, even with soft mapping and they spin up easily at low throttle and this punishes a beginner badly. There are easier bikes to ride, 200, 125 etc. Many riders don't need 250 upwards. I've no idea of sales figures but know of a lot of people who didn't buy another 4RT (me included) so maybe it is falling sales that have influenced a decision by Honda. Certainly can't be the lack of success at WTC. It will be a shame if they do go, in Repsol colours I think it is the best looking trials bike out there, but maybe it no longer has the appeal it once had now that many more riders have tried or owned one and made their own minds up since they first appeared amidst all the hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 They, whoever they are, are blind to the american market. "The Montesa COTA 4RT will be fully equipped with a complete on-road kit, including front and rear lights, turn indicators, speedometer, horn, steering lock and license plate bracket, that allows it to be ridden legally on public roads. These components have also been designed for easy detachment by customers who wish to pursue more competitive off-road-only applications." If that were true in the USA, and the bike came with a good long ride kit, and was available through Honda dealers, it could sell in the thousands anyway. Based on how they stare longingly at my 300txt at the trialhead, MTB'rs could be interested. It's a low impact, hi-performance backcountry bike. It's a competition trial machine. You get both! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian640 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 It comes down to cost really. If you remember between '05 & '07 when they were Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian640 Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 I've no idea why Honda are reportedly pulling the plug again, Is this really the case? Not seen any hard evidence at all that Honda are pulling the plug on trials, in fact aren't Montesa fielding a team next year? Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for artie Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 They, whoever they are, are blind to the american market. "The Montesa COTA 4RT will be fully equipped with a complete on-road kit, including front and rear lights, turn indicators, speedometer, horn, steering lock and license plate bracket, that allows it to be ridden legally on public roads. These components have also been designed for easy detachment by customers who wish to pursue more competitive off-road-only applications." If that were true in the USA, and the bike came with a good long ride kit, and was available through Honda dealers, it could sell in the thousands anyway. Based on how they stare longingly at my 300txt at the trialhead, MTB'rs could be interested. It's a low impact, hi-performance backcountry bike. It's a competition trial machine. You get both! Everything you say may be true but how would you deal with the exchange rate? Today its at $1.50/Euro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for artie Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 Is this really the case? Not seen any hard evidence at all that Honda are pulling the plug on trials, in fact aren't Montesa fielding a team next year?Cheers. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 undoubtedly there have been fewer new 4rt at trials a couple of influencing factors.. price.. trials riders are tight they moan 10 quid is too much for a days sport never mind 6k plus for a bike.. alternative choices... originally there was one the 4rt then the countrys most numerous brand ( beta) started knocking out a 4T. .. the world wide recession.. new bikes are a cash rich societys niche market of a niche market in the recession that cash dries up (i'd hazard that the majority of new bikes are bout by 35 years + married males with familys who dont work as teachers doctors or other recesssion proof occupations) everyone has ridden 2t and changing to a 4t is a big thing.. simply put people dont care for change they may want it desire it but actually doing it is another thing altogether.. smokings bad but people do, pollutions bad but people do, organic foods are good but we stick to bad foods ... we dont change simple.. and thats why no body is buying a new mont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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