woody

Thanks to everyone for all the responses - I'll be in touch for those maps

Recently bought the programmable ECU from <mention of this company is not permitted on Trials Central>, mainly because I wanted to slow down the throttle response coming off tickover. It's too sharp for my liking as standard. First thing I did was install the mild map and a Mitani front pipe and tried it the following day at our trial. Definite difference noticed straight away. Rode off towards sections and normally whilst in top gear just twist the throttle, gentle pull on the bars and up it comes onto the back wheel for effortless wheelies up the field. This time there was a slight lag in response and it needed more of a pull or higher revs for the same effect. Good I thought, a definite difference so something has changed. Noticed the difference in sections too as when pulling just off tickover on cambers and uphill turns there was less of a tendency for the wheel to spin up with the slower response. Due to the appalling weather, there were some 3rd gear flat out muddy climbs too and there was no lack of mid or top end power so first go and pretty pleased with the result. However - and this is where Mr Ferretflasher comes in - I would like it softer still so was going to map a setting myself. Until I came to look at how to do it. Can't make head nor tail of what to do. I've looked at the ignition graph for the softer mild map and expected to to see a slight retardation in lower rev range going back to 'standard' for the last two thirds. But the graph is all over the place and there are different settings for TH position/rpm setting.... What is TH position - throttle? throttle position sensor? If so, how can you have a setting for 3% TH at 12000 revs...?? You can't make half revs at 3% throttle opening never mind 12000. Unless I'm missing something very fundamental, the instructions don't give any information at all on what the effect will be of changing settings. It tells you how to change them, which anyone can work out, but not how to increase/decrease power delivery for a specific rev range. I don't get the TH thing at all. And as for the fuel settings, in the absence of any guidance on how much to alter them I wouldn't touch them for fear of burning out pistons/valves etc by leaning off too much. Attached are screen shots of the ignition map for the mild setting, one for 3% TH which is sort of something like I expected to see, then one for 5% TH which makes no sense at all and looks more like the ECG trace of a hospital patient about to recieve the last rites - akin to how I feel after trying to work this out. So Ferretflasher, how do I soften the bottom end a bit more without altering mid to top range? - for the moment anyway. Can you help?

It is either the front or the rear, not both, that are no longer available from Yamaha, but I can't remember which now. The available ones can still be ordered from Yamaha, I got some last year. For the unobtainable ones, you're relying on any dealers that may still have some on the shelf so it is a case of ringing around. Birkett's were going to have some remade as they had some monos to rebuild for customers that needed spokes so may be worth trying there. I asked Central Wheel if they could make me some but they can't. If your spokes are ok and just dull you can get them and the nipples replated and use them again, I did this with mine and they look new. Or just buff them up and reuse them. Don't know what it is with those DID tims but they seem to corrode far more easily than the old Akronts fitted to Ossa, Bults etc. The Hondas seem worse than the Yams too, especially the Jap imports, many of which have been standing unused for a long time so any water inside the tyre causes the rot.

Yes, I reckon a 305 Fantic would be my choice too if a nice example could be found. Had one at the time and it was a very nice bike and I always liked the look of them too. Only thing I didn't like was footrests too high but that is common on all bikes from 80s through to 90s. Mono Yam wins hands down for reliability and spares availabilty apart from spokes. Rears not available any more from Yamaha, therefore like hen's teeth and fronts probably getting scarce too, so make sure the wheels are ok on any potential buy (Birketts were having some made but not sure whether it happened or not) They're not as competitive as later Fantics, GasGas and Betas etc when things get on the limit with the trick stuff but that was back then in British and World championship events. In aircooled mono class these days that's irrelevant as sections aren't severe and well within the Yam's capability. Watch the 270 versions as they come in all sorts of states of tune - as can 250 too - ported cylinders, reworked heads, shortened inlets, exhausts etc. Some can just spin up, others nice and torquey and grip well. Try one in snotty conditions before buying if you can. Nice to have if you come accross a good one but not essential as standard 250 has more than you'll need in all honesty. Standard unmessed Pinky the best option.

I know it's open to anyone but I'm not around that weekend so can't go anyway. I didn't word it very well but what I meant was, the subject of 2 routes was proposed before but not taken up. I guess that as the Classic rounds are well supported, no-one sees any reason to change them. The entries are high enough for most of them, it is just that the bias is now towards the monos and moderns, but I guess that isn't really an issue for the organisers who just want a healthy entry to make the event worthwhile staging and aren't worried which classes make up the bulk of the entry. Haven't heard any results from Sunday's round yet but Phil Wiffen said he finished on 7 (300 Fantic) which was one hell of a ride and well done to him. Interested to see now whether anyone has bettered it as I'd guess that score will push the winners of the monos and moderns as well. Not one of my better days, very good trial and enjoyed it but too hot, sun-stroke and knackered from the trial the day before, too p*ssed the night before and generally too unfit anyway. Could cope with all that when I was 20 but not now. Went over the bars twice for no apparent reason other than to entertain anyone watching....

I agree and it's what I've been saying - 2 routes with classes for all on each route. Main preference is for t/s and Pre65, as it used to be, but I've no wish to kick out the air cooled monos really. If any class had to go due to number of entrants increasing it has to be the modern bikes as the over 40/50 championship could run with the novogar on 2 routes. There is no shortage of trials for modern bikes after all. I asked our centre ACU rep to raise this 2 or 3 years ago but nothing has come of it so far. Not sure about stopping the t/s class in the Miller rounds though. I think they encouraged them initially due to the decreasing number of Pre65 entries, so had to add other classes to make the trials viable, otherwise the entry would be too small. What about people who have now aquired bikes to ride alongside their mates as well. Same as those who have done that in the Classic series with air cooled monos. Once a class has been introduced it's difficult to withdraw it when people have bought bikes on the strength of a series.

I don't think you will find any aftermarket weight saving parts for the TL250 in the UK due to them not being on sale in significant numbers. Very few were brought in as far as I know. Miller is the man who will know and if he doesn't sell anything for them, no-one will. Not sure he even made a hi-boy frame for the 250, just the 125. I am pretty certain there is no WES exhaust for them. The US specialists are your best bet and you can probably get stuff in Japan as their specialists did lots of home market improvements for Yamaha and Hondas that were never exported. Problem there is finding someone who can find out for you. Just to get you going a bit more on what Honda could have done for its loyal and willing to pay fans, here is a photo of Rob Shepherd's RTL360 before Lejeune came on the scene. Now if only they had done few of these as replicas with a lightened version of the TL250 motor. Instead they did the Seeley in th UK to capitalise on the success the 360 enjoyed here. A lovely little bike but not as good as they could have done. Then there is this, a bit of a mixed copy of a Fraser Honda and a works 305 (cross between Shepherd's and Marland Whaley's bikes) made out in Spain and finished in Honda factory colours I think. Nice

I'd change your diet and see a doctor before taking that advice.......

Couple of questions - Of the 2 routes which classes ride which routes? Do you mean Pre75 as it is now which is for Pre75 British, or Pre 75 anything?

perhaps I should try some cider but judging from that load of B*****ks you've been on it a while and drunk the lot....

Your best bet is to contact Birkett's as he probably knows all there is to know about Yams. You should get a definitive answer from them

Very harsh - it's only a 5 if the tape breaks. They get away with murder with other rules, feet down, going backwards etc. and someone gets a five for touching the tape. It's getting as bad as Formula 1 for rules and rule interpretation......

Take the A30 from Exeter and just past Oakhampton turn left onto the A386 towards Plymouth. Follow it down through Marytavy and and not much after there will be a left turn which will be marked with the usual orange arrows. Just follow them from there. It's a few miles down a single track road which can be a pain but worth it when you get there. Great venue and so far has always been a great trial

Pretty much spot on - but don't you mean when they introduced the stop and hop rules

Can't disagree with that. Break anything on one of those and you can't just have a new one delivered in the post the next day. I'm the same with my MK1 Ossa - or will be if I ever get it back together

Yes, they were nice looking bikes without a doubt, almost equal in beauty to a MK1 or MK2 Ossa MAR.....

Thought you meant mine had a Mono engine..... Without a doubt, the series needs 2 routes now. I'm happy with the severity of the sections at the moment and don't think there is anything that is too hard. Nothing I wouldn't try on my Ossa for example, but with the increasing numbers of modern and aircooled mono bikes at the events, how long will it stay like that. It has now become an over 40 modern bike and aircooled mono championship with twinshocks and Pre65 in support. Sections may begin to be set specifically for those classes. It's supposed to be a Classic championship. At the last round there were 5 Pre65 and 8 twinshock entries - and that was too easy as it was a sidecar trial. 2 routes would open the series back up to a much wider range of riding abilities, hard route as it is now with an easier second route and the entries could swell again. Easier route for Pre75 British and Pre75 twinshock 'support' class, harder route is the championship route for twinshocks and Pre75 specials (as the people who ride them would probably find the easier route not enough of a challenge) Twinshock hard route can be ridden on a Pre75 twinshock if the rider wishes for the same reason. Over 40 and aircooled mono could have their own route and class in the Novogar series. God knows where converted monos fit in. As regards 'pure' twinshock, you can't define it. People were swapping and modifying allsorts at the time, not just now. I rode a Majesty this year as after 15 years of riding my Ossa which is by far the oldest bike in the twinshock class, I wanted to be a bit more competitive against the newer twinshocks. Although the Yam is a far better bike, I actually miss riding the Ossa so will probably rebuild it and ride it again next year - if we still have a series... Quick question for Bo Drinker - Your personal details have a Seeley as one of your bikes. Why not ride that in the twinshock class instead of converting a mono

i also agree with woody, start with a old ty twin shock replace old wheels-forks-swing arm for ty mono items , have not got time nor money to trick up old motor so use ty mono motor. wow a really trick original , reliable , non acu twin shock rule breaking ,in the sprit , TWIN SHOCK PS. PITLEY STOP LAUGHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You've got me laughing too now - TY Mono engine.... must be a fault with it then as 6th gear is missing and it seems to have changed shape..... Have a ride on it on Sunday and you can see how trick it isn't no argument with that - wasn't it twinshocks that evolved into monos........

Standard gearing for the original red drum brake model is 9/41 according to the manual

If you're interested in buying a Gollner Kawasaki KT250 I know of one for sale. It's a runner, needs a bit of work, has been painted all black, but is all there except the bash plate. If you're interested telephone Colin on 01543 672759

Agree entirely that we all ride for the enjoyment of it and if these sort of bikes are accepted at club level then no problem. But when it comes to competing in a championship for a specific type of machine, car or bike or whatever, then there have to be some rules governing eligibilty, otherwise there is no point in having a championship for said type of machine is there?. So can I take my 4RT, put twinshocks on it and ride in the Eastern Thumpers 4 stroke only trial at the end of the year, or the Talmag, as it is the latest evolution of a 4 banger. With reference to the Scorpa 4 stroke, I can't see any problem with them competing in air-cooled mono class. It is an air cooled mono.... I think they are a cracking little bike but can't see they have any significant advantage over older air cooled monos. But the problem is this. It's all very well to say we only ride for fun, but people are naturally competitive wether they admit it or not, some more so than others and if they don't win their class, even at an insignificant club event, they will look for something to blame rather than admit they were simply beaten by someone better. In the case of the 4 stroke Scorpa they will blame that as it is more modern and say it gives the rider an unfair advantage. But if anyone is riding one who doesn't win, then they won't pay them any attention or moan about them.

Godden uses standard TY bushes, still available from Yam dealers as are the steel end caps and seals. Only difference is the Godden swing arm is slightly narrower width at the spindle end, so the steel tube that the spindle runs in is shortened also. These aren't available any longer so don't lose it.

Well I know everyone is different and I am pretty much for the 'each to their own' philosophy when it comes to peoples hobbies, choices etc. but I just can't see the point or desire to convert monos to twinshocks and ride them in a twinshock class when there are plenty of good, reasonably priced twinshock bikes available if it is a twinshock class people want to ride in. Why convert a mono when there are now classes for air-cooled monos, but also, when air-cooled monos are still very competitive against modern bikes in club trials even now. It's not as if there is a shortage of trials for which those bikes are suitable. Chris Myers still rides the Scottish Six Day on his TY Mono and gets a very very respectable result. If people want to do it and individual clubs allow them to be ridden, either in or outside of twinshock class/awards then that's fine. I just don't understand it. But the twinshock class really came about as a lot of people in the mid 80s were fed up with the direction trials was taking, tight sections, stop, hop trick riding. Then came the stationary balancing which was like watching paint dry. Most trials back then still only had one route and the older twinshocks in particular were unsuitable for modern sections, so fortunately, the ACU introduced the National Pre65 and Twinshock series, supported initially by Sebac. This enabled riders who preferred the old style of no-stop riding to drag out their old bikes, the ones they had an affinity with and rode when new, and ride them competitively again on sections designed for them. It was a fantastic series and very well supported with all manner of bikes being ridden. Now the key phrase there is 'the bikes people had an affinity with and rode when new'. That was what the spirit of twinshocks was about. Riders who were too old to change to modern technique, or not good enough, or who just didn't want to were able to ride again on the bike they favoured from that era, either one that they rode at the time, or one that they would like to have ridden but never owned, or whatever, but you get the picture. You rode it because you had some sort of affinity with it. Some still owned a twinshock that they rode at the time and competed again on it. The crux of it was you rode a twinshock because you enjoyed that style of riding and the look/character of the bikes. They weren't perfect though and as far as modifying them is concerned, there was plenty of that going on during their era. Majesty Yams for example came in so many guises. Supported riders bikes had modified steering, suspension, engines whilst some 'over the counter to Joe Bloggs' Majesties just had the basic changes. Most manufacturers or importers were moving rear shocks all over the place, there were aftermarket frame kits, exhaust mods, reed valve conversions were done on Ossas by Keith Horsman for Ossa UK as long ago as 1975, wheels and forks were swopped around etc etc. So there is nothing wrong in modifying them now - up to a point. The difficulty is knowing what that point is, as wherever someone draws a line, someone else will find a way around it. Most competitors in the ACU Classic accept the limit and where to draw the line and are happy to keep it that way - at the moment anyway. So fitting electronic ignitions, different forks, shocks, altering head angles and rear shock mounts is nothing new. It is still the original twinshock bike and a heavy lump compared to more modern stuff. I've ridden in the National twinshock championship since it began and there are no twinshocks competing in that, at the moment, that are modified to what any of us 'regulars' would call an unreasonable standard. I don't think fitting say a 303 Fantic engine in a 240/300 gives any real advantage, Paioli forks are better for sure, but a significant advantage, no, I don't think so. Electronic ignition doesn't make it go any better, it's just maintenance free and less hassle. Steering angles, shock positioning is just to suit personal taste. I've never heard any of the regulars complain about other competitors carrying out these mods, but none are in favour of disc brakes or converting monos to ride as twinshocks. Ask anyone what they think of Tim Wheeler's conversion to his Yam and they will just say it is done purely to gain an advantage over twinshocks and to win the class in that centre. I haven't met anyone yet who thinks it is acceptable and I know people complain about it to each other but never to the club officials. Bottom line is, they think it is a cheat bike. If people want to convert monos to twinshocks and ride them in a specials class, I can't see a problem with them having a class of their own. I still don't see the point but as I said earlier, each to their own. The opinion I've voiced here on the subject is obviously my own, but I can also say it is the opinion of a lot of others too. Feetupfun has some good points in his post. I'm also aware that my Majesty has been called a cheat bike but the last thing I am is dishonest and the mods were carried out to personalise the bike, not create a fiddle one. There is nothing hidden and it is what I'd have done to one at the time if I'd been able to but I didn't have the facilities so it was easier to buy something that suited me better. But I always wanted one and now I've got one I did what I would have done then. Quicker steering, longer swingarm, electronic ignition, better forks, different exhaust. Yes I used a Yam mono swingarm shortened but that was because I wanted a box section one (as I hate the original one's shape) I can't make one myself but have got just enough ability to shorten the mono one to fit. It's no advantage coming from a mono, it's still just two sticks of metal to the back wheel and the shock position is unaltered, it's just 1 and a half inches longer than sandard. The 'works' Majesties had revavled forks as TY forks are useless, under sprung and under damped. Again, I didn't have the expertise to revavle mine, tried and failed, so was going to fit a pair of marzocchis (Fantic, Armstrong etc) but I had some mono forks. They are no better than marzocchis but look nicer and have the neater mudguard brace, so I used them instead. I couln't get the original Majesty or Fantic type wheels to fit so had to use the mono wheels. Braking performance is no better than the standard wheels and I'd never use them again on anything else as you can't get spokes anymore. In terms of fiddle performance - Different people have ridden it. One didn't like the steering, one didn't like the front weight bias, another hated the motor, some like most of it but not everything. The point here is no-one has jumped off it and said - it's too good, it's a fiddle bike not in the spirit of it. And that is my point. It's still a big heavy lump of a twinshock, just tweaked to suit me. A mono Yam with twinshocks will murder it. I couldn't agree more with your suggestion Mattylad, that there should be a class for pre76 twinshocks (or maybe pre75) I would love to see this introduced in the ACU Classic but it would need 2 routes also, something the series needs right now anyway. I don't see a problem with a specials class for the converted monos either, other than the number of classes we'll end up with but the ACU might. As regards the mono Ossa I can't see how they can be excluded from the twinshock class as, like you say, that was their era and they were the bikes they were ridden against. I don't think they were actually that much better anyway. They should qualify purely on the basis that they were fitted with twin shock absorbers as original manufacture anyway. They were converted here in the UK...... PS Mattylad - do you want to sell your SWM as I know someone who may be interested. He was looking at the one on ebay a few months back and was interested but was involved in a house move then. Wasn't yours was it?

You don't say whether it is the 175 or the 250 model but for either, I don't believe it is just a simple bolt on job. Unfortunately, neither do I know what is involved to make the DT ignition fit, if it is possible. I do know though, that a TY Mono stator can be used on the TY250 twinshock, using the twinshock flywheel and the mono CDI and coil. The mono flywheel won't fit the twinshock crank. People have done this. I had a 250 Majesty running once with a mono stator but then Craig Mawlam brought out the electronic ignition for the twinshock Yams so I bought one of those instead. From memory, I had to to elongate the mounting slots in the mono stator to achieve something like the correct timing, although it was trial and error for static timing as the timing mark on the mono stator is of no use on the twinshock. Once running a strobe can be used to set new TDC and timing marks. Depends on budget I guess but the easiest solution is to get the electronic ignition off Craig as it is just bolt on using the existing flywheel and is available for 175 or 250 engines. Cost is about

Yes it can be done, as Martin said, Tim Wheeler did it to his, as have a couple of others. But the question is why would you want to..?? You're kidding yourself if you think of it as a twinshock. Even with the mono removed and twinshocks added, it is far superior to any proper twinshock and will p*ss all over them in terms of performance, so could you take any satisfaction in any results you achieved on it against actual twinshocks. Not sure how Herefordshire Classic would look on it either If the other clubs don't run an air-cooled mono class does it really matter? Just ride the route that suits you. A mono Yam is still good enough to win the hard route in a lot of club trials (please note that's club, not centre or national before anyone jumps in and says that's B*****ks) As far as the ACU goes, it is only the national ACU Classic championship that has the 'must be twinshock as original manufacture' and 'no disc brake' rules. At club level it's up to individual clubs what they allow, but I'm with Martin - it's not in the spirit of the class. Once a few more people do it where does it stop. Monts, Gassers, Betas, all converted to ride as twinshocks..?