woody

I think people are still being too quick to judge this bike. The indoor series is not the place to do that. It's a show, like a circus. They contain virtually the same sections (or close variants) whatever the event and the only difficulty the 4RT is having at the moment is the big splat sections. But who in club or centre trials is going to have to worry about those? On the more technical stuff Doug has more than matched the others on occassion and he is, as usual, riding his nuts off trying to get a win. It may happen, maybe not, and I really feel for him as the frustration must be crippling. However, indoors bear no resemblance to real trials. Ultimately what does the outcome of the inddor matter - apart from to a rider as they like to win everthing they enter. Outdoors is what really matters and by the time they come around the 4RT and the skill of its riders may be just as competitve as the others. LeJeune won 3 titles on a four stroke in the 80s against what should have been lighter and more competitive 2 strokes and both he and Saunders came within a whisker of doing it again on the RTL. No reason why history shouldn't repeat. Outdoors is not about leaping from one pallet to another, over and over and over and over again

I certainly agree they were hideously overpriced compared to the opposition but that didn't stop them from selling in the UK. So I don't understand the comments that they were a commercial failure here which is why Yamaha withdrew them. They had a production run from 93 to 98. That's 6 years and typical Yamaha, continue with a model without major development as it keeps selling. Just like the TY Mono which by the 90s couldn't match the other bikes in terms of capability. It was still a great clubman bike yes, but you wouldn't win a national on one by then. By 98 the TYZ was lagging behind the opposition so sales slowed up which is why Yamaha discounted the price. But they all sold, Yamaha have't got them all stockpiled somewhere have they? So I don't understand the less sales/commercial failure view.

OK then, just for the record, I'm all for live and let live and everyone has a different opinion of what is good and bad, fashionable or unfashionable. It's what being an individual is all about and I don't let the fact that others don't share my opinion of what is good or bad upset or enrage me. Sheer stupidty and rather bigoted to do so. But, if the TYZ was so bad perhaps someone can explain to me how one of the Huddleston brothers won the Expert class of the British championship riding one when it was already a few years old, more than once I believe, against riders on the far superior Beta, GasGas, Scorpa, Montesa machines. And also how Dan Thorpe, Adam Norris and Rob Crawford won National trials on TYZs. In fact, I don't think Adam Norris ever got the same results on the Beta as he did on the Yam. Sure they haven't got much lock for tight turns but remember the rules when they were designed. Anything goes trick riding. Trials bikes weren't ridden or steered around corners, they were stopped and hopped all over the place so steering lock was immaterial. All the other bikes had USD forks so they didn't have much lock either. I had one of the original red Beta Zeros and that had less lock than a TYZ and probably my enduro bike... As for being heavy that's pretty much crap. 60s and 70s bikes are 'heavy'. Yes they're heavier than current bikes, only to be expected. But in terms of actual weight they were no heavier than the bikes they were brought out with, they don't feel heavy to ride unless trying to ride it 'modern expert' style which is dancing it around on the move but that again is immaterial as the type of person riding one nowadays can't ride like that anyway. They look heavy because of their bulky appearance. They are not really any wider accross the footrests than a 315 if you compare them. A Beta Rev3 feels heavy after riding a Gasser but only because the weight is front biased. Gasser feels heavy after a Sherco for the same reason. The actual bikes are pretty similar in weight I'd guess. It's al about perception when riding them. The TYZ has always come in for stick. A bit like the 4RT is now for some reason, particularly from people who have never ridden them. As I said earlier, people love them or hate them. Doesn't bother me either way as it makes no difference to my life. I've always liked them and have accepted the faults I think they have which I mentioned in my original post. I know current bikes are obviously better and I've now retired mine and bought a 280 Pro. But going back to my original question, if they were so badly designed, how did they achieve the results they did at British Championship (expert class) and national level? And if you're suggesting that the TY Mono is better then the TYZ you've been on the bottle.... Some riders may prefer riding a TY Mono to the Z, but the Z will do far more than a TY Mono is capable of. PS; You must have forgotten that when the TY Mono first arrived it wouldn't run properly as the carburation was way out. Shirty did a nice little trade in selling the 'correct' jets (with the numbers ground off) and modified airbox lids to make them run properly - ie what it should have come with in the first place. Not quite what you'd call ' right, and worked extremely well! '

RS we've been here before I think. There must have been something seriously wrong with that TYZ of yours. As said earlier I've had 5 of them and all will easily pull me from a standing start up muddy or dry climbs in 4th. Absolutely no problem. I'm no lightweight either, over 17 stone in riding gear. Between sections it will pull 5th up climbs with little run up. On the flat it will pick up the front in 6th from about 20mph for wheelies. In SSDT you hardly have to touch the gearbox accross the moors as it just pulls. I remember doing the Loch Lomond 2 day in 97 on my TYZ. After one group of sections there is a climb up the side of a mountain that must be between quarter and half a mile straight up skywards. Really steep. The TYZ ate it in 5th gear. Following year I was on a new 315 98 Mont. That wouldn't pull me up in 4th, it just died. Had to stay in 3rd and it was slow going. My mate, also on 98 315 could just pull 4th but he only weighed 9 and half stone. And there was nothing wrong with my bike powerwise either. Hated it actually as it was too sharp. As I said before it is probably the most torquey trials bike I have ever ridden, not the most powerful but definitely the most torquey and flexible. Better than the Scorpa engine - in my opinion. Scorpa is still the more competitive bike though, no argument there, but so it should be as it is virtually 10 years newer in design. The perfect bike for me though would be the handling of a GasGas Pro with the performance characteristics of my TYZ engine. Wish it would fit in the Pro frame.....

Well, you may get some interesting responses to this one. Prepare to see the TYZ take a beating would be my guess. Having owned 5 TYZs and ridden but never owned a Scorpa, here is my opinion. No point listing differences as the two bikes are like chalk and cheese. TYZ is now over 10 years old in terms of design whilst even the oldest Scorpa SY is modern up to date design. Scorpa steers and finds grip better in mud and slime and is lighter and more capable in terms of trick riding. Scorpa has a better riding position as the footrests are too high on the TYZ although this can obviously be changed. On predominently rocky trials such as SSDT and the like the TYZ is still very capable. The steering is fine on these types of section and it will hold a line well. The suspension is still good and it soaks up rocks well but obviously things have moved on and the Scorpa's is better. TYZ is obviously much better for roadwork as it has a seat. Although they share the same engine, this is where the TYZ wins hands down for me. It is more torquey and flexible than the Scorpa, has a smoother delivery off tickover and is absolutely linear in its power delivery. The Scorpa seems to have lost some of the Z's bottom end torque, runs lumpier at the bottom and just doesn't have the same feel to it. I don't know if Scorpa port the engines or not but more likely it is down to the design of the exhaust. The biggest difference in the engines though seems to be their longevity. TYZ engines are pretty well bullet proof, will take loads of abuse and just keep going. I've never had to replace anything on any of them, not even rings. Scorpas on the other hand seem to suffer from engine failure for some reason. Now I don't mean every one of them obviously, before Scorpa owners start jumping up and down, but I know of a few that have had engine rebuilds before they are even a couple of years old. Twisted cranks seem to affect some of them for some reason. The biggest problems I've had with riding the TYZ is that the front wheel won't hold on slippery cambers and it always pushes out on tight turns in mud. It just won't hold a line on this sort of going. This is where a Scorpa or any of the other current crop are much better. It is still possible to buy a decent TYZ today and no they aren't or never were dogs but opinion is divied. Some people loved them some hated them (just like the 4RT or any other bike) You just have to remember how old the design is before judging it against current bikes. Dougie wouldn't win a world or British round on one now.... Go back 6 years though, when they were already 5 years old and Adam Norris, Rob Crawford and Dan Thorpe were putting in superb rides in the SSDT on them. One of the Huddleston brothers won the Expert class in the British championship on one. I have recently bought an 05 280 Pro and it is more capable than the TYZ as you would expect. It handles a lot better than the TYZ in the Midland gloop. I have a dilema though. I am confident that if I do the SSDT on the TYZ it will not suffer mechanical problems and will sit flat out on the road all week and not lose a thimbleful of water. If I ride the Pro I will not have the same level of confidence, even though I want to ride it because it is the better bike. It won't be as comfortable on the road and it certainly won't match the TYZ's tarmac performance. Quality on the TYZ is not an issue. Now if only the engine in the Scorpa had the same characteristics as it does in the TYZ I would have had one, but for me they don't. I don't mean they are underpowered or not any good, just not as torquey. They seem a bit hollow is the best way I can describe it. Now if you really want to know how a TYZ engine can perform you should try Nigel Birkett's bike. The TYZ motor in that is a beaut. Poduction of the TYZ stopped in '98 Don't think you'll find any similarities between the TYZ nd 315 frames other than they are alloy and perimiter design

Just so that you know (apologies if you do already) the tanks sold by Miller are based on the shape of the UK alloy tank used on the MK2 onwards, therefore different from your MK1 fibreglass tank. Not a problem in terms of fit as they both use the same fittings, just something to think of in case you want to keep the look of the MK1 tank. He used to make the tanks in both alloy and fibreglass, about

Have a look on Mats Nyberg's Ossa site, link below. At the bottom of the homepage is a list of specialists etc. One of these is Jeff Nolen of Vintage Dirt Bike in Texas - handy if you are in the US. They specialise in repairing fibreglass tanks so may be willing to give some advice. http://hem.passagen.se/ossa/ The website for them is www.vintagedirtbike.com but it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.

I wouldn't disagree with you on those points Mick.The weather certainly screwed things and although a few sections would still have been a bit 'interesting' for less capable bikes, if the weather hadn't intervened scores would have been a lot lower. The next round in Newquay is new so no-one knows what to expect. Just hope I'm not going to travel 250 miles or whatever for 'Miller' standard sections. Bootle is worth the trip as although hard, the sections are more natural as most are up rock streams, difficult but won't pulverise the bike. Not on the road but a good ride around the fells/moors. Welsh Trophy is also good and road-based and not hard on the bikes but on a Saturday not Sunday. I agree that there is now a fair step up from the Miller to the Classic series. This I think, is where dual routes in the Classic would come in as a clubman route would bridge that gap and encourage more riders out to play on older, more standard bikes. Has to be something wrong somewhere with these serioes though in terms of the number of Pre65 and twinshock entries. I did the Greensmith Miller round last year to get me riding again after a long lay-off. The largest class was trail bikes, not trials bikes. In the classic series, twinshocks and Pre65 are outnumbered by Modern and air-cooled monos. Seems the very bikes the series were created for are now in the minority. Now if you go back 10 years to the old sebac/falcon series - 2 routes and generally 100+ entreis of Pre65 and twinshocks only....

No, didn't mean that at all Mark, that bit obviously came accross wrong Just meant that if you've never ridden one of these tricked up Pre65 machines you wouldn't believe how competitve they actually are. Quite capable of trouncing bog standard 70s twinshocks like yours and mine. The Miller series is too easy for them, or rather the bikes are too capable for the sections. Now a standard Pre65 bike on the other hand, well, I agree with you. Definitely would not want to ride one of those around that trial. I had a standard trials B40 once. If I'd been on that on Sunday I'd be on crutches now.......

Don't be fooled into thinking that all Pre65 bikes are unwieldy peices of rubbish. The leading cubs that were there on Sunday are more competitve than all but the best of the twinshocks. There are also some handy lightweight B40 and C15 trickers around too, not forgetting the James and other Villiers engined specials. All of these are good enough to give all but the latest twinshocks a run for their money. They are a lot more rideable and controllable than you think. On a standard Pre65 though you would have hurt yourself - badly. This is why they all modify them........ The series is definitely creeping towards being more suitable for twinshocks now though, above trick Pre65 bikes excepted. Riders on bigger bikes are definitely in for a struggle. In one sense I'm happy with it as there is nothing other than this series in the UK that provides challenging sections to allow riders a good competitive run out on their twinshocks. Ease the sections off and you take away the challenge and any sort of prestige that a National championship should have. Pre65 on the other hand has the Sammy Miller series, Northern Pre65 championship, Talmag, Eastern Thumpers, Scottish 2 day, another new 2 day trial this year in Scotland. The Midlands has its own Pre65 championship organised by the BMCA and I have just learned of another new Pre65 2 day road based trial to be held around Welshpool in early July. Only one of these events allows twinshocks (Spanish Pre76 only) and that is the Sammy Miller series. The rest ban twinshocks without exception. So we need the ACU Classic to pitch the sections at the right level to offer the twinshocks a good challenge, and after a few dodgy years I think it has begun to do this. If that decreases the amount of Pre65 entries then that is sad but they are well catered for in the other events. Personally, I would love to see the series return to the old format it began with, catering for Pre65 unit and pre-unit and twinshocks by using 2 routes. It was interesting to see the huge variety of machinery ridden and meant that groups of mates who were passionate about bikes from different eras could travel around the country and ride some truly excellent events. The change I would make from before though is to run an expert class on the hard route for the twinshocks and better riders on the trick Pre65 bikes who wish to tackle it and run a clubman class on the easier route to cater for both twinshock and Pre65 riders who don't feel capable of tackling the harder course. There would be an Experet and a Clubman champion at the end of the year in each category. Adopting that format would cater for all abililties and may also encourage more early twinshocks to get out there as well. At the moment, 70s twinshocks are poorly represented, Fantics, Hondas and Majesties etc. being more common. My '75 Ossa is generally the oldest bike competing and it is very much outclassed by these more modern bikes which steer better and offer brake and clutch control, more power and a choice of gears other than bottom..... mmmm nice. I lost a lot of marks at the Mansell purely because I had no control downhill and no way of making tight turns on clutch and brakes. I've no complaints about this as I know the limitations of the bike in certain conditions and I ride it because I have an affinity with the marque. However, in order to be competitve a change of bike may be necessary. Tough choice for me. It is maybe issues like this that stop others from trying to compete on the older bikes. Having an easier course or even a Pre77 class in the twinshocks may encourage more people to have a go on thier older bikes as they are at least competing against equal machinery. They are out there as enough of them are selling on evil-bay. Getting back to the Mansell, I thought it was a good trial. Only a handful of sections were 'ambitious' but the organisers were well and truly caught out with the change in weather and there was nothing they could do to alter them. Roll on round 2 in Newquay, Cornwall. A new trial for this year. Hopefully the snow will hold off for this one. Wonder if there will be any beach sections..

IRZ carbs were fitted up to '73. All of the MAR models had Amal 627 fitted from about '73 onward up to your '76 model - unless the States and Canada continued with IRZ a bit longer, don't know. All of the manuals however only list the IRZ, not the Amal. First of the Amals were bolt on fitting, then in about '74 they were push on into a rubber inlet hose (different cylinder barrells for either) Standard settings for the Aaml carb are pilot 25, needle jet 106, main jet 150 (maybe 160) needle clip on the middle groove (there is only one needle size) Float height isn't adjustable. Throttle slide number 3. There isn't much you can do in the way of servicing other than replace all of the components but there is always the possibility that the carb body itself may be worn, depends on how much use it has had over the years. If the carb is the bolt on type, new ones are available as they are still made in Spain. If it is push on, these aren't available anymore, they were unique to Ossa I believe. They are only avalable as 26mm now though, 27mm no longer made. All of the parts, or a complete new bolt on carb, are available from both Surrey Cycles and Hitchcock's here in the UK. They both have web sites and both have exploded view diagrams of the carb with part numbers - at least Hitchcocks do anyway. http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com http://www.surreycycles.com The bikes do run ok with the Amal if it is working properly but an alternative is the Mikuni VM carb as these are available from the States cheaper than the Amals are over here which are about

Raga and the other Spanish are riding indoor sections all the time as they have their own indoor championship in Spain through the outdoor close season, so they have an edge there. Having watched 3 of this year's indoor events on TV, the Toulouse round having just finished on Eurosport about 10 minutes ago, it is evident that the 4RT isn't as capable on the big splat type sections as the 2 strokes. It doesn't seem to have that immediate hit that they need to launch the bike into the air and onto the face of the obstacle. Either that or the three Mont boys have lost some of their ability on this type of section as they could do them before...... You only have to see Lampkin riding the other type sections to know this isn't true. So yes, if all sections are big splat attacks the 4RT will be at a disadvantage, therefore you can build sections to the advantage of the 2 stroke. And this is taking nothing away from Raga because he is bloody good, no doubt about it.

Just measured my non-pinky TY Mono forks with the vernier and they measure 36mm immediately above and below bottom yoke, 36mm immediately below top yolk and also midway between the dust seal and bottom yolk. For some reason, at the mid point between the top and bottom yoke they are 35mm - can't explain that. Length from middle of spindle to top of stanchion is 75cm give or take a couple as I was stretching to reach the bike. If you are stuck for a front end try Ellastone off-road breakers as they have broken a few monos with and without disks

You're right. It was the model referred to as the pinky that had the Yamaha disk as standard, available from about '90 or 91. Talon, Gateway and Shirty all did disk conversions for the earlier bikes but none were much good really. The Yamaha set up was much better. Could well be the same wheel/disk/caliper set up as the TYZ but not too sure on this. TY Mono front forks work superbly giving nice plush compression and rebound damping. As good as anything else availabe at the time and still good by today's standards as modern forks tend to have a lot of bounce in them rather than a slower, plush action. I have a pair of mono forks so I'll measure their length tomorrow. Diameter is 34mm I think but I'll double check that too.

The Yamaha framed Majesty also had the engine lifted higher in the frame to give more ground clearance. This meant that the brace that runs under the frame top tube to join with the downtubes from the headstock (incorporating the toolbox) then ran very close to the sparkplug, so the brace had to be modified and shaped to bend around the plug. On a standard frame the plug is well away from this brace. This is easy enough to check for if you remove the tank. Also, where the frame tubes were cut at the bottom of the frame at the rear of the bashplate for what must have been the engine lifting mod, the tubes were left open. Normal frame will have properly finished tubes. I've hopefully uploaded a picture of what I mean marked with red arrow. I have 2 Yamaha framed Majesties and they are both modified in this way. The exhaust pipe also needed to be shortened in height as well I think due to the engine being moved up so there should be signs of welding where it has been cut and rewelded. So although it is relatively easy to reposition rear shocks Majesty style, it's unlikely that anyone would also carry out these other mods also. Apparantly, Shirty still has the build sheets for all the Majesties and is still willing to help out with veryfying/dating them so he would be able to tell you straight away from the frame number whether it is genuine or not. Not sure if Craig has that info or not.

Sheared flywheel key maybe?

I think the frames with the extra tube you mention are the earlier ones. The bike in the picture, which I bought last year, is about a '68 I think but the person that owned it before the person I bought it off did ride it in the Scottish Pre65 apparently. He was a dealer from Newcastle Upon Tyne way but can't remember the name. Can't verify if this is true or not but there is a blob of paint on it similar to the scrutineering marks they use in the SSDT. No idea whether they do that in the 2 day though, as I've never been successful in getting an entry (not with the Sprite - 500 Enfield) Wouldn't like to ride this Sprite in the 2 day anyway as it is. It's about as competitive as my Bandit 1200......

It does look like a later Sprite trials frame even though it appears to be in scrambles guise. Parrallel down tubes, the tube under the top frame tube to the headstock, swingingarm all appear genuine Sprite, even the engine/sump guard. They used to offer leading link or telescopic forks, down to the customer I think. Picture of a Sprite trials

If you want to try and contact Joel Corroy for parts, this is his number from the regs of a trial he is organising. It's probably the number of his shop in Vesoul but chances are you'll get someone who speaks a little English. 03.84.75.83.34 or fax 03.84.76.59.24. You'll need the code for France which I can't remember. Haven't managed to post pictures of my old bike yet - techy problems.... However, if yours is the Europa Weekend model they won't be of any use to you but I'll post just in case anyway. Just don't remember the Weekend having drum front, thought it was drum rear/disk front. Then again, my memory is useless. Didn't know Birkett rode one, let alone was a dealer.... If it is a Europa then Brian Griffiths should be able to help, not sure he has anything for the earlier model. Also, Steve Goode has broken one, maybe two Europas, so worth trying him also. Plastics will be white rather than red though. 01938 850544

Agree about the Classic Team shocks. I tried Mick's bike and they worked really well. I've no personal interest in them either just for the record.... I am thinking of trying some next time I need som shocks however.

Don't remember Birkett ever riding one, only Yams from Majesty days onwards. John Reynolds and Mick Andrews rode them but Rob Sartin rode the later disk brake bike, the SR version of the Europa. I'll hopefully get pics on by tomorrow night. If yours is missing as much stuff as you say though I think you may find it difficult to get the parts now. I've just remembered. If you search the forum archives you should find another topic on JCM as I remember someone else after info a while back. May have some info useful to you.

If it has drums front and rear then it should be one of the first models which came as 323cc followed by a 240cc. They had an oil-pneumatic rear shock which worked on gas pressure - no spring. Quinn's was the importer but he is long gone. Robinsons in Rochdale were a dealer and are still around so may have some spares. Best bet may be Brian Griffiths M/Cs in Hereford (I'm sure it's Hereford) as his son Carl used to ride one and I think he has spares. Don't have a number though. I had one of the first 323 models. If it's any help and I can get the scanner working I'll post a photo , although have to find the old pictures first.

Dabster, I'd agree with your thoughts on the power/torque of the 325 against 340. I've owned and ridden later 325s and the power delivery was always quick, or snappy perhaps. I've only ridden one 340 ever, finally got the chance a couple of years ago after a classic trial I had ridden on my MAR. Was well impressed. Immediate impression was how torquey the motor was (would be after the MAR though) not snappy or sudden, just a smooth and predictable delivery of torquey power. The suspension worked really well on the front although the rears - falcons - were a little soft but not too far away (see, they're not always perfect ) I also felt that the steering had been 'tucked in' and was a little quicker compared to what I would call the norm for Bults. This all led to one very nice bike which had loads of usable power, steered and gripped well and was stable over the rocky sections I tried. Only drawback over the Ossa was one section with a series of tight turns which the Ossa did with room to spare. The 340, even though it felt as though the steering had been tightened, still had to have the front wheel floated off the odd handy rock or root to make the turn. Didn't have the lock/steering angle to just steer round. But then the Ossa will turn up its own *rse so not really a criticism. When I gave the bike back I asked him if he wanted to sell but no way - he then told me it was one of Thorpe's old bikes so that may account for it being so good. As it is the only one I've ridden I wouldn't know if it was any different from a standard one. He wasn't selling anyway but one day perhaps..... I've since managed to acquire one but it needs some work. It has had the frame mod to move the dampers forward at the rear although the engine hasn't been repositioned, or the swingarm mount. Seems to work quite well suspension wise but the exhaust is a disaster and needs sorting as the engine (noisy is being kind - it's what Hookey's should have sounded like....) is being strangled. The alloy fabricated airbox is a beaut however. Welding on the repositioned frame tubes is messy but can be tidied, I hope. There is a good bike in there somewhere - it's just finding it..... So Dabster, I'm going to try and get around to rebuilding it in a few months. If I e-mail you can you send me your list of magic Sherpa tricks so I can plan ahead on the what's hot mods list. Big John you're a scoundrel..... I saw that 250 6-speed too and thought the same as you - bet that is a 340. Didn't want to investigate any further though as if it was I know I'd have done the same as you and I just wouldn't have the room to keep it or the time to ride it. I've already overdone it. But then again, a gentleman and all that. Good spot anyway.

Perhaps some have been influenced by their road biking bretheren. Ever been to a bike gathering in a pub carpark on a summer evening. Seems to be the done thing amongst a certain element of sportsbike rider when leaving the place, to start the bike up and immediately rev the tits off it in neutral bouncing the rev limiter to impress everyone takes years of practise and the level of skill required is beyond measure...

If you want the ultimate testament to the ruggedness of a 340, Dave Hooke used to ride the bike he owned from new in the old Falcon series for a good few seasons during the 90s. Anyone that knows him will recall what a handy rider he was on that bike, winning many rounds. More appropriate to one of the issues raised on here however, reliability, they will also know what a merciless chap he was with a bike. If it was an animal he would be on the most wanted list of the RSPCA. That Bulto took some serious abuse over the years and only needed one rebore in all that time. Nothing else broke on it as far as I recall and I have seen it held on full throttle for periods that really should have melted every revolving part inside the motor before welding it together. But the bike just took it and moved on to the next event. Price of a 340 now depends upon who is selling and what people are prepared to pay I would say, depending on how/where it is advertised, as well as the region. Vague? Yes, but a nice example on e-bay a few months ago which you would expect to have made