woody

can't see you getting home before dark...

You weren't alone in stopping riding but others were for different reasons. In the 90s, the SSDT and other trials were on their knees from a shortage of riders due to the ridiculously tight and totally unrideable sections of the era that the average Joe had no chance on because they couldn't trick ride. This meant they couldn't hop and bounce and reverse themselves into the required positions to attack obstacles. In truth not many others could do it consistently either, INSIDE of the rules. Remember the 5 for a stationary dab. How many times was that given? Not many and there was hell to play from riders and minders when it was. To try and avoid it riders just carried on hopping around like demented rabbits to regain their balance and avoid the dreaded foot down, but in the end the stationary dab inevitably came during this circus act. This performing caused the endless queuing whilst riders p#ssed about for minutes on end getting lined up for several attempts to get over obstacles. This pattern was repeated throughout Nationals where average riders had absolutely no chance of getting through sections as they couldn't trick ride. Result - falling entries and as an alternative, the start of the twinshock series with traditional sections and rules. Bugger, I knew I shouldn't have got involved in this topic but I'm on a rant and roll now... I'd argue that a rider shows more control and ability by turning up at a section, inspecting it, defining what he/she believes to be the best line for a clean, or even a planned dab and then executing that ride in the planned manner. One attempt to enter and ride through the section to the ends non-stop. If you fail you fail, no second chance to attempt an obstacle again or to recover from wandering off-line because of a mistake by stopping, hopping around back on line and carrying on. Just like a golfer who can't stop and redirect the ball if it is going to miss the putt. Or the tennis player who can't stop the serve that is heading outside of the line and bring it back in. One chance and one chance only. Sure, the hopping and bouncing is extremely clever, but it is a different type of skill. If it is allowed, sections can be broken up into sub-sections and ridden a bit at a time whilst the rider stops, adjusts, has a look and goes again. Not as much thought needed to plan a line as you can sort it out as you go along. Two very different skills and approaches, the latter enables much bigger or spectacular sections, but only for the very few, and there would still be fives galore if they were observed properly. I know which I think is the purest approach and form of trials and it is the former. Anyway - Back to the original question of ACU rules and it depends on the club/centre/type of event/observer etc. etc. etc. As someone has already pointed out there are 2 sets of rules and clubs can run whichever they like for club/centre/national events. The rules that allow 'sideways' movement are open to such abuse that they are very rarely correctly enforced. Feet-up stops go unpenalised. Riders bounce bikes all over the place giving the impression of continuous forward/sideways movement but often the bike can have moved backwards in relation to the section. Some observers will give you the nod to 'do what you like lad' as 'the sections a bit tight'. Others don't know and aren't bothered. Some will let you come out of the section boundary to gain an advantage, others won't. So if all of this rambling tosh has left you still confused over what the rules are, ACU or AMCA for that matter, then that is the point. So is everyone else so you are not alone.... And no, I haven't a bloody clue what the answer is

You will be the envy of some US collectors who are going for the full set of Ossas. That is the one they can't get.

I agree that on no account should riders be forced to ride at a level they think is too difficult for them

A mate of mine who is an absolutely brilliant fabricator/welder once made a replacement fuel tank for another mate's TYZ for the Scottish. It fitted perfectly, the plastic cover still fitted correctly and I think it gave almost an extra litre capacity. It filled every bit of available space under the tank cover and even though it couldn't be seen was still beautifully made. I borrowed it myself a few years back to do the SSDT. Unfortunately it has bee sold on a couple of times in recent years and we don't know who has it now. Another way of increasing the capacity is to make a small supplementary tank that fits onto the front forks, where the number board fits. Same mate made a few of these some years back as well for local riders. They were the same size as the number board but about a couple of inches deep and again took around a litre of fuel. If you know someone who can alloy weld and fabricate, this would be fairly easy to make as it is just rectangular in shape. Just needs a filler cap and tap outlet and a fuel line to the carb. I think some firm was selling something similar a few years ago as a drinks carrier as well - same principle, except it wasn't connected to the carb...

I'm with you there. I doubt Joe Public will ever know the real reason. Speaking to someone at the weekend who has one on order, all paid for etc. (some time ago as well) and he says they have been halted because of a 'branding' issue that has to be corrected. ie; some are branded as Mont some Honda. Apparently they were all the same. Something to do with the front mudguard or stay. Wasn't really paying attention as I was taking it with a pinch of salt. So there is another reason for the delay from someone 'in the know'. I just feel sorry for the poor sods that have ordered them, particularly those who have paid up front in full, and are being kept waiting without the slightest public sympathy or statement from the importers or factory. It is really disheartening to look forward to receiving your new bike and..........nothing. But they did the same with the 315.

Cheers Bikespace - taken in the spirit in which it was intended.. How about this then 1975 Ossa 250 on it's 29th birthday. Lakes 2 day and Loch Lomond 2 day in 2001, zillions of classic championship rounds over the last 15 years, loads of centre trials (sometimes entered somewhat over ambitiously considering the lack of clutch and brakes and the nature of modern sections..... ) zillions of club trials etc. etc. In other words it's been battered. Excellent in its youth but dementure and frailty setting in. Recently; Too many engine rebuilds to think about. Probably more strip-downs than the tears I've shed... A voracious appetite for pistons. Now on it's third liner and up to maximum again. Probably single-handedly responsible for wiping out Millers entire stock of pistons and rod kits over last few years. Broken frame 7 broken rear brake plates 3 broken front brake plates Several duff ignitions Hideous appetite for swing arm bushes Clutch with more of an aversion to disengaging than Honda have for releasing their 4T bog wheeler. Brakes that actually make you accelerate when applied, the type of acceleration that is only matched by the resultant passage of #### through the bowels and widening of the eyes Repeatedly breaking or bending gear lever as the engine is wider than all of the rolly pollys standing side by side. A recent propensity to pink and knock for no apparent reason causing more detonation than found in the average working rock quarry - culminating in the mother of all blow-ups at this weekend's Classic Experts which I had been so looking forward to and didn't bloody well finish. It is being pensioned off herewith. Who said Gassers were the least reliable

been fighting this for too long and just have to do it '95 TYZ on it's 9th birthday, several SSDT, numerous centre trials, nationals, club trials, even subjected to some 'throttle to the stop' road racing around Scottish twisties and so far; still on original piston and rings original clutch engine never been apart never loses water original shock and s/arm bushes bashplate and all of its bolts line up perfectly still does 80mph and a bit It has, finally this year, been treated to some wheel bearings. Hadn't bloody well budgeted for them this year though... Sorry - just couldn't resist it

Oh Yes......... last year. First day before the first group of sections. Not the fuel capacity of the bike to blame though. An Arctic was parked up on the pavement obscuring the flags to turn us into a junction. I didn't know to turn off there so sailed past and went a good way before realising something was wrong. U-turned but ran out before I reached the fuel check. A long push and finally blagged some neat fuel of a farmer to get to the fuel check. Great bloody start to the week. Guy on a Rev 3 was with me and did the same but his bike went a bit further than mine before he ran out. Mishaps like that aside, the fuel capacity on the TYZ is enough to get you around without increasing it. You can put extra fuel in the frame. The bike I have at the moment has been done but without stripping it can't see exactly how it is done and I've never used the extra capacity - and no, it isn't the bike I rode in last year's. The holes on the inside of the frame spars are welded up, A tap/outlet is put into the bottom of the cross-brace that runs between the spars by the carburettor and presumably is connected to the pipe from the tank to carb. There is a breather in the top of the frame just in front of the headstock. What I can't work out is how the fuel gets into the frame in the first place, unless it is filled through this breather. I shouldn't worry though a it will get round on the standard tank.

Oh yes - Not only are some of the girls capable of putting in a decent score in the six days - I was going to say ride but that opens up all sorts of inuendo - they've aquitted themselves pretty well on this thread too. Unlike some blokes, Katy read and understood the original post in the context it was intended, ie; encouraging MORE girls to ride, she didn't take it as demeaning to women. However, far be it from me to stop a good sexist slanging match

Oh dear....... I see a whole new thread on this. It is a very long one on the end of the needle that is stitching Ishy back together after the women have torn him to pieces....

Interesting to read that Dabster, thanks. I know this is off thread now, which I don't approve of, but sod it, everyone else does it and the Mony 4T 'where are they' saga has been done to death. Reason I asked is because I've just bought one in bits to maybe do the ACU Classic on next year. No idea how competitive they are or what they ride like but I've always liked the look of them, as they are cute, so wanted one anyway, even if it is just to look at if it turns out not to be competitive. The motor isn't the TL, it is a purpose built trials motor from Honda Racing, probably based on the XR range. It was used in Honda's own RS200 bike. I think you can get kits to take them to 250. Suspension can be tweaked or altered at the rear and the front is Marzzochi so no problem there. We'll see anyway. Just fancied something different and I like 4 strokes as well as two, but firstly it has to be competitive as the Classic is dominated by modern twinshocks now. Therefore the Majesty is waiting in reserve - the Ossa is hereby pensioned off...

Bloody Hell - I can't believe the animosity Jon H has attracted with his post. Regardless of whether you believe it was the 4T Montesa, all he said was a 4T was louder than a 2T and that is generally the case. If Jon was at the practise ground I think he is referring to there is every chance the landowner has a decibel meter and was on the warpath as the council are close to closing him down through noise - caused mainly by 4T motox, enduro bikes and quads. On the subject of noise, I have a 426 Yam enduro and my mates have 2T KTMs. Regardless of the decibel level (which is a science/load of B*****ks in its own right - my Ossa registered 107 at one trial - yeah right) my Yam can be heard from some distance away being ridden in thick woods at our practise area, whether being revved or pootled along, the KTMs can't so you wouldn't know they were there. The low thump of a 4T carries much further than the 2T. (Therefore I don't ride my bike there) None of us as Joe public know whether 2 Strokes are dead or not just as none of us know whether that was a 4T Mont or not. We weren't there. They are, or have been available in Europe so who's to say someone hasn't brought one into the UK independently. There have been plenty of direct imports, why not a 4T Mont. Give the guy a break. He hasn't been malicious or insulted anyone, said anything damaging (how is what he said damaging...??) What did everyone get so wound up about? It's like a bunch of bird watchers miffed that they weren't the first to spot the newly hatched lesser spotted throat warbling 4T Monty. Lighten up. As far as 2 stokes being dead, how can anyone on here answer that one. If it was intended to generate a debate it certainly did that...... just not on the actual topic. An educated guess would be that if 2 strokes were about to be outlawed Yamaha would not have invested a tidy sum in developing their all new alloy framed YZ125 and 250 2 strokes but left the 4 strokes with the steel ones. KTM have only just introduced brand new 2 stroke engines in their enduro range. That suggests they will be around for a while yet. If the FIM want to ban 2 stokes from the WTC let them. As club riders do we really give a stuff. If the other factories can't afford to develop 4T WTC contenders what are the FIM going to do? Close the championship down or have it as the Montesa/Honda challenge for maybe half a dozen riders, or allow 2 strokes to continue. The FIM can't ban the use of 2 strokes in individual countries outside of the WTC, so as long as government/global legislation allows them to be produced the factories will continue to produce them if there is a demand. Just a personal opinion.

Love this sort of stuff. In the 60s and (for me) 70s, having a works bike fitted with special bits sitting in the same queue to a section as a club rider just added to the interest and enjoyment of competing. The works parts or next year's development bits always seemed more visible then than they are now and always captured the imagination. Works Sherpas with different airboxes, 247 Monts with prototype 348 motors, Prototype Gripper which was half Gripper, half MAR, Tony Gorgot on the 330 Mont prototype in SSDT etc. One-off works bikes like the short/long stroke Hondas. Privateers did their own thing too, Don Smith's Stag, Steve Wilson, Bultaco. I guess the last of the true works specials were the RTL Hondas. Most factory bikes just look the same as over the counter bikes now. I know they aren't before anyone steps in, but they don't really look any different. Sadly I don't have any pics to contribute but I'm hoping others do.

Not sure what that is saying about the Seeley. Cough up Dabster.

No takers so I'll have a go then. Purple wheel model is actually a 94/95 and they are generally thought of as the best in terms of power delivery and grip. Biggest problem, depending on how tall you are, is the high, in current terms, standard footrest position but this can obviously be resolved by moving them. The 96 bike was the first to have the exhaust manifold with the canister on it and was probably a bit sharper as you have said. I had a new 98 bike and it was too zippy off the bottom. Had to give it to Nigel Birkett to soften off with some porting work and it was fantastic after that. Gripped like hell. 96 onward also had a 5mm, maybe 10? spacer under the top yolk to higher the bar position. However, as the youngest bike is now about 6 years old they are all generally pretty soft in their power delivery as they've lost any sharpness they may have had. Don't interperate this as flat or gutless though because they aren't. They are a tremendously torquey engine, just very manageable off the throttle which means you aren't 'chasing' them through sections. You can pretty well ride them without always riding the clutch, even in higher gears. The engine will pull any gear you want they are that torquey. I haven't owned a Scorpa but I've had a go on a few and in my opinion (and that is all it is) the Scorpa engine doesn't have the same torquey flexible feel as the TYZ. The Scorpas I have ridden still had a softish delivery but they weren't as smooth around say nil to quarter throttle and had that distinctive slightly jerkey 'beat' that most modern bikes have if you ride slowly without the clutch. You can drop a TYZ down to nothing in a section, then pull away again with no snatch, jerkiness etc. even in 3rd or 4th gear. It's power delivery just seems so linear all the way through, no sudden bursts or surges, just responds precisely to the throttle. Beautiful engine - again in my opinion. The difference is probably only down to the different exhaust systems. Just to clarify, I'm not saying the Scorpa isn't as good, I just prefer the feel of the TYZ motor as it feels more torquey to me.

Motopat - I've found a manual. I think it is for the later bike as it is the 2 part one. Doesn't really make any difference though as the info you will want from it will cover all models, such as oil quantities, fork oil etc. The things that changed on the bikes over the years won't really affect general servicing. These were different ignitions, rear shocks, front pipe, longer/shorter tail pipes and the later bikes had a spacer under the top yolk to raise the bars to compensate for the high footpeg position but that's about it. The only thing you may notice is that if you ever need to remove the flywheel yours may not be the same as the one in the manual and therefore need a different puller. All you would need to do is give your dealer the engine number and they can supply the correct puller. Or you could make one. Whilst talking about servicing, if your front forks work ok I'd leave them alone as they are a sod to work on. Straightforward enough, just time consuming. If you do ever need to change the oil set the level to 95mm. 10 weight works ok for me. If I remember rightly, the manual says they take 440ish cc of oil per leg but you cant just fill them with this quantity. They have to be bled to fill all of the internal chambers, as per the manual. If you just fill them with 443cc it is way too much and they won't work. Once bled and the level set the final quantity is a lot less than 440cc. E-mail me your address to dajwood@aol.com and I will send it to you. It's in good condition apart from a slight water stain on the top of the first few pages due to a water leak in the garage, but it is ok, there is no deterioration or anything. Don't want anything for it as it is a spare. Once you've had a chance to get used to the bike there are a couple of things worth doing. As said before, footrests are quite high as it is an early 90s design so it is worth changing them for wider, modern type rests and moving them down and back a bit to get a better stance when standing on the bike. Standard position you can feel that you are tipped over the bars too much. Depends on your height as to whether this is causes you a problem or not. If you find the engine a bit quick off the throttle you can move the ignition stator to full retard to slow the response a bit. This won't hev any affect on the engine's power and it will still pull perfectly well, just won't hit so hard. TYZs don't have much steering lock so if it hasn't been done already you can'sculpture' the frame either side to allow more lock. Most have been done by now. Also have the fork legs protruding from the top yolk buy about 10mm to quicken up the steering. All this is personal preference of course and you may find the bike fine as it is, but these are some of the mods done. Hope you enjoy the bike. They may no longer be 'modern' but are still very capable and the best thing about them is the build quality which should give you hassle free riding. Mine is 10 years old, been through the scottish 6 day more than once and is still on original rings, shock linkage etc.

Wasn't in last night so didn't get chance to look. I'll check tonight and let you know. Pretty sure I still have one for the later bike. Early manual was one thick book but for later bikes it was split into two thinner books, not sure why. Not sure about the Comp 4 oil. May be ok but I don't know. To be safe I'd buy some proper gearbox/clutch oil as it is less than a tenner for a litre. I use silkolene light gear oil and it works fine. Boofont said it takes 600cc but I think it may be 800cc. It is displayed on the clutch case by the filler plug so you only have to look there to check.

Hi Motopat. I've had a few TYZs. They are a good, solid, reliable bike, last a long time and can take a lot of abuse. There aren't any inherent problems with the clutch. I've had occassions where the clutch doesn't disengage at all from cold when you first put it into gear but as soon as it frees off there are no further problems. I've never had it creep forward though. Sounds obvious, but is it correctly adjusted on the cable? If the bite point is too close to the bars it may cause creeping but can't see how that would disappear as the engine warms. Is the cable ok or could that be sticking and slowly releasing itself after you have released the lever. A warped plate perhaps? I've never heard of them but don't know for a fact it doesn't happen. Depends on how much abuse it's had. The TYZ will take a lot but everything has it's limit... I'd change the oil as a matter of course as you've just bought the bike and see if it improves. Any of the modern gear oils should work ok. If it doesn't clear, you may have to check the plates. Gearboxes again are good. Most bikes will crunch occasionally when selecting at a standstill, but the TYZ will generally snick in and out quietly with no problem. Maybe linked to the clutch problem. The fan issue is difficult to answer. If the bike isn't losing coolant I wouldn't worry. You could just replace the thermostat for peace of mind. TYZs are fine for prolonged use and are a very reliable, virtually bullet proof engine. I've never had one overheat. I've thrashed mine around the Scottish six day, wringing it's neck everywhere all week at 82mph which is flat out and it's never lost so much as a thimbleful of coolant all week. You should be able to get a manual from a Yamaha dealer if still in print but not sure. I've no idea of the cost though. As far as I know there isn't one available to download from the net. However, I may have a spare manual for the 1998 bike that I could sell as the bike I have now is a '95 and I have a manual for that. I'll check and let you know. Finally, an excellent source for info on the TYZ is Nigel Birkett as what he doesn't know about them isn't worth knowing. Any problems you ever have he should be able to answer.

everyone thought you were going to reveal a picture of it.... Beta also now produce enduro bikes using the KTM range of 4T motors. How about a Rev 3 with a 525 EXC motor. That would really level rock steps

Just had a quick look through MCN whilst in WH Smith at lunchtime for their 'report' on Moto1. Unless I missed it elsewhere, there is a measley quarter of a page article, largely comprising of how good the stunt riders were and a quick mention that DK won the event overall. No report on the day's proceedings whatsoever, who won what discipline etc. Seems they can devote pages to banging on along with all the hype of how Rossi is 'the best motorcyclist in the world' but have no interest in reporting on a unique event to find the UK's best all-round motorcyclist. Could it be because the off-road boys trashed the roadracers - surely not.

Birkett's definitely did a different brake plate for the mono so worth a call to clarify whether it was the YZ mod that some people did or something different. Several people in our area fitted the Gateway disk conversion when they were new and to be honest they weren't much of an improvement over the drum brake, if at all, according to those that had them. We had no experience of the Talon conversion so can't comment. Shirty also offered one I think but again can't comment. Ellastone off-road breakers who advertise in TMX are worth a call if you want to convert to disk as they have broken a few mono Yams so may be able to help out with the pinky disk job.

A chance for all of you with twinshock and Pre65 machines currently languishing in sheds, gardens and garages to get them out (ooer missus) and give them an outing in the Classic Experts run by the Rhayader Club. A good traditional trial with roadwork around the beautiful Rhayader countryside which has some of the best trials terrain to be found. Two routes, Expert/Clubman, so something for everyone, with sections comprising streams, roots, banks, gulleys etc. Organised by the enthusiastic Malcolm and Anne Bates, the trial desrerves to be well supported so dig out those old bikes and use them for what their creators intended. Regs details should be in TMX - secretary is Anne Bates, Little Gigrin, Rhayader, Powys, LD6 5NU TEL; 01597 810435. Closing date is 8 November.

Pems in Rochdale were Fantic dealers 01706 645781 and still stock parts for them. Give them the engine/frame no. and they should be able to identify it for you. Ditto Bill Pye in North East somewhere but don't know his number. Memory's a little hazy now but if it is around 1991 I'm guessing it may be a 247 (212cc) or 307 (250cc) as I think these were the only air-cooled Fantics to have USD forks around then. Orange/white tank and White frame/mudguards colour scheme originally, plus orange hubs. They did do an air-cooled 'clubman' model in the water-cooled era a couple of years on from that but can't remember what forks that had. Either of the above dealers should be able to sort it out for you though.

I certainly do - Nice buy Big John, I'm not at all jealous I thought it had sold to someone else. Now if you'd care to sponsor me on it in the Classic series I wouldn't have to worry about all those 'what if's' that stopped me bidding on it - oh ok, and the fact that I knew I would be outbid anyway Tim - the 306, or 305 (as it seems to be referred to as either) came in both long-stroke and short-stroke. The long stroke was the original, specced by Miller and based on a stroked version of the TL250 motor I believe, such as that in Big John's bike. The short stroke was a new motor built by HRC with completely different bore and stroke making it very short in height physically and oversquare. The 360 evolved from this short-stroke motor and they achieved the 360cc by lengthening the stroke. The 306 short-stroke and the 360 differ in appearance from the long-stroke, most easily recognisable by the high gear lever position. Now I'm no expert on trials Hondas but this is correct to the best of my knowledge. Attached picture is of Shepherd's 360