woody

OK - Thanks for that. Things begining to look a little clearer now. I see what you mean about the fins on the RS250. I noticed it but thought it was a shadow. I've since found a picture of the RS200 and see one or two differences between the two. Just didn't realise they did the RS250 as a production bike. So now I see you know a bit about Hondas..... Any idea how an RS200 motor has been converted to 250cc using a TLR barrel. I know of someone who has done it but at the moment can't find their contact details to find out how. Just wondered if you knew. I'm in the process of getting a Seeley and if I can get hold of a spare engine I'd like to convert it to 250.

I'm really confused with these bikes now. Not trying to be clever here or make a point, just genuinely confused. I thought the first pic was of a TLR250 because I didn't realise they did a version of it in Japan called the RS250, but the second picture is an RS200 isn't it, not a 250. I have seen pictures of the Japan only RS250 which were ridden in the SSDT around 1980 and they were nothing like the picture above of the TLR type RS250, or the RS200. They were almost a direct copy of the 360 looks wise. That's why I didn't think you'd posted a picture of it. Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to be clever here, just genuinely confused now... Slapshot 3 - As regards wheel building it's difficult to give a price as it depends on type of spokes etc. which affects cost. If you look at Central Wheel Components website, they have all prices on there so it's a reasonable guide. They also have rim prices too. Don't have a URL but you can find them on a search easy enough. As an example, it cost me about

I can see the pic of a nice TLR250 but where is the pic of the RS250

It's not so bad to do, just a bit time-consuming that's all. Manual covers it well, but basically; Loosen the top nut of each leg whilst the leg is still in the bike but undo the top yolk pinch bolts before trying to loosen. Put the leg in a vice or whatever to hold it. Loosen the allen bolt in the bottom of the fork leg that holds the damper rod in place. Don't remove it at this stage or oil will pour out, just crack the thread. Use an air wrench if you have one to do this but if not it should undo ok. The compressed spring should stop the damper rod turning. To get an allen key into the allen head you will need to screw the damper adjustment screw right in otherwise the allen key won't fit properly into the allen bolt head. Count the number of turns you screw the adjuster in so you can reset it afterwards. Once you've cracked the allen bolt, put the leg vertically in the vice (remember it's still full of oil at this stage) unscrew the top nut from the stanchion. The stanchion can then be pulled down showing the damper rod and spring. The top nut is still attached to the damper rod at this stage so hold the locknut that is underneath the top nut, you'll need to pull the spacer and spring down to see it, then unscrew and remove the top nut, followed by the spacer and spring. Make sure you note the order of these components as they come off for reassembly. You can now drain the oil by pouring it out of the stanchion. You'll also have to pump the stanchion and also the damper rod (not both at the same time) to remove all or at least most of the oil. Then remove the allen bolt from the bottom of the leg. Prise up the dust seal out of the leg and remove the circlip (I am pretty sure there is one) that holds the seal in. You then have to clamp the leg in the vice and pull hard and sharply on the stanchion to yank it out of the leg. At this stage only the tight fit of the bush is holding the stanchion in the leg. It may take a few good pulls but it will come out (cue the inuendos) Expect to fly backwards accross your garage when it does so make sure you have an clear path for your journey just in case..... When the stanchion comes out it will have the seal, bush and a spacer on it and it will also spew a bit more oil out. Note their order. You may as well put new bushes in whilst you're doing the seals. Reassemble the new bush and seal on the leg with the spacer and push the stanchion back into the leg. You should coat the seal with grease as per the manual. You will need to drift the seal and bush into the leg until they are seated correctly. You can't just push them in. There is a special tool but you can improvise. I use an old tube spanner large enough to slide over the stanchion. Whatever you use be careful not to damage the seal. Replace the damper rod allen bolt and ensure it is properly tightened. Then follow the procedure for filling with oil. Leave a final gap of 95mm from oil to top of stanchion. Refit the spring, spacer and top nut. Readjust damper adjustment screw and job done. Please note that this is from memory and just to give you an idea of the procedure. It's not the definitive procedure and I may have overlooked something as it's been a while since I did the job. Give yourself a couple of hours as it's the first time you've done it. It's not too hard, just a bit time consuming but follow the manual and you will be ok.

No problem with stainless spokes. My MAR wheels were rebuilt about 12 years ago with stainless spokes and I have never had one break or even needed to tighten one - On a bike that has had some abuse and hard riding over that period and they also still look new.

PeteJ - do you know what you're letting yourself in for..?? You'll cry tears of blood and Angels will weep before you're finished... Have your frame and swingarm powder coated by a reputable firm as it will provide a durable quality finish. They will blast it as part of the job. Fork legs/yolks just need to be polished by a professional as they are able to remove all of the scratches and imperfections and get the mirror look, as long as there are no deep gouges of course. Or you could do it yourself with wet and dry and solvol but I wouldn't recomend it for your sanity and although you'd get a good shine you'd never get the deep mirror look. I bought a polishing kit once and did a Bultaco but bloody hell, what a mess. The whole garage looked like it had been sprayed with soot and I looked like a miner - never again. Only way to tidy up hubs really well is to strip the wheels and have the hubs and brake plates powder coated too. Make sure the bearing housings and brake surfaces are properly masked. If they powder coat the inside of the drum it is an everlasting nightmare to remove it - trust me, I know. You then need to rebuild the wheels with stainless spokes. New rims or polish or anodise the old ones. It's a lot of time and effort and is also very costly. I rebuilt my Ossa years ago and did a similar job to Booma's Honda in terms of finish but it doesn't stay looking like that for long if you ride it regularly for any length of time, which I did. Wouldn,t stop me from doing it again though (what am I saying?) as it is worth it when it is first done - you only have to look at Booma's to see that. Powder coaters and polisher etc. you will find in your local yellow pages or classic bike mags. If you want to sell your tl200E instead of subjecting yourself to this torture, send me a message as I've been looking for one to ride in the twinshock series next year.

Yep, the bike comes with non-adjustable ignition/fuel mapping and you have to buy the adjustable kit. Can't really see why it should be a problem though as according to feedback the standard set-up will have more performance than all but top-notch riders can exploit so who needs it?

There are 4 I think, don't know exactly where in the inlet/exhaust they are, which if removed turn it into a rocket apparently

can't see you getting home before dark...

You weren't alone in stopping riding but others were for different reasons. In the 90s, the SSDT and other trials were on their knees from a shortage of riders due to the ridiculously tight and totally unrideable sections of the era that the average Joe had no chance on because they couldn't trick ride. This meant they couldn't hop and bounce and reverse themselves into the required positions to attack obstacles. In truth not many others could do it consistently either, INSIDE of the rules. Remember the 5 for a stationary dab. How many times was that given? Not many and there was hell to play from riders and minders when it was. To try and avoid it riders just carried on hopping around like demented rabbits to regain their balance and avoid the dreaded foot down, but in the end the stationary dab inevitably came during this circus act. This performing caused the endless queuing whilst riders p#ssed about for minutes on end getting lined up for several attempts to get over obstacles. This pattern was repeated throughout Nationals where average riders had absolutely no chance of getting through sections as they couldn't trick ride. Result - falling entries and as an alternative, the start of the twinshock series with traditional sections and rules. Bugger, I knew I shouldn't have got involved in this topic but I'm on a rant and roll now... I'd argue that a rider shows more control and ability by turning up at a section, inspecting it, defining what he/she believes to be the best line for a clean, or even a planned dab and then executing that ride in the planned manner. One attempt to enter and ride through the section to the ends non-stop. If you fail you fail, no second chance to attempt an obstacle again or to recover from wandering off-line because of a mistake by stopping, hopping around back on line and carrying on. Just like a golfer who can't stop and redirect the ball if it is going to miss the putt. Or the tennis player who can't stop the serve that is heading outside of the line and bring it back in. One chance and one chance only. Sure, the hopping and bouncing is extremely clever, but it is a different type of skill. If it is allowed, sections can be broken up into sub-sections and ridden a bit at a time whilst the rider stops, adjusts, has a look and goes again. Not as much thought needed to plan a line as you can sort it out as you go along. Two very different skills and approaches, the latter enables much bigger or spectacular sections, but only for the very few, and there would still be fives galore if they were observed properly. I know which I think is the purest approach and form of trials and it is the former. Anyway - Back to the original question of ACU rules and it depends on the club/centre/type of event/observer etc. etc. etc. As someone has already pointed out there are 2 sets of rules and clubs can run whichever they like for club/centre/national events. The rules that allow 'sideways' movement are open to such abuse that they are very rarely correctly enforced. Feet-up stops go unpenalised. Riders bounce bikes all over the place giving the impression of continuous forward/sideways movement but often the bike can have moved backwards in relation to the section. Some observers will give you the nod to 'do what you like lad' as 'the sections a bit tight'. Others don't know and aren't bothered. Some will let you come out of the section boundary to gain an advantage, others won't. So if all of this rambling tosh has left you still confused over what the rules are, ACU or AMCA for that matter, then that is the point. So is everyone else so you are not alone.... And no, I haven't a bloody clue what the answer is

You will be the envy of some US collectors who are going for the full set of Ossas. That is the one they can't get.

I agree that on no account should riders be forced to ride at a level they think is too difficult for them

A mate of mine who is an absolutely brilliant fabricator/welder once made a replacement fuel tank for another mate's TYZ for the Scottish. It fitted perfectly, the plastic cover still fitted correctly and I think it gave almost an extra litre capacity. It filled every bit of available space under the tank cover and even though it couldn't be seen was still beautifully made. I borrowed it myself a few years back to do the SSDT. Unfortunately it has bee sold on a couple of times in recent years and we don't know who has it now. Another way of increasing the capacity is to make a small supplementary tank that fits onto the front forks, where the number board fits. Same mate made a few of these some years back as well for local riders. They were the same size as the number board but about a couple of inches deep and again took around a litre of fuel. If you know someone who can alloy weld and fabricate, this would be fairly easy to make as it is just rectangular in shape. Just needs a filler cap and tap outlet and a fuel line to the carb. I think some firm was selling something similar a few years ago as a drinks carrier as well - same principle, except it wasn't connected to the carb...

I'm with you there. I doubt Joe Public will ever know the real reason. Speaking to someone at the weekend who has one on order, all paid for etc. (some time ago as well) and he says they have been halted because of a 'branding' issue that has to be corrected. ie; some are branded as Mont some Honda. Apparently they were all the same. Something to do with the front mudguard or stay. Wasn't really paying attention as I was taking it with a pinch of salt. So there is another reason for the delay from someone 'in the know'. I just feel sorry for the poor sods that have ordered them, particularly those who have paid up front in full, and are being kept waiting without the slightest public sympathy or statement from the importers or factory. It is really disheartening to look forward to receiving your new bike and..........nothing. But they did the same with the 315.

Cheers Bikespace - taken in the spirit in which it was intended.. How about this then 1975 Ossa 250 on it's 29th birthday. Lakes 2 day and Loch Lomond 2 day in 2001, zillions of classic championship rounds over the last 15 years, loads of centre trials (sometimes entered somewhat over ambitiously considering the lack of clutch and brakes and the nature of modern sections..... ) zillions of club trials etc. etc. In other words it's been battered. Excellent in its youth but dementure and frailty setting in. Recently; Too many engine rebuilds to think about. Probably more strip-downs than the tears I've shed... A voracious appetite for pistons. Now on it's third liner and up to maximum again. Probably single-handedly responsible for wiping out Millers entire stock of pistons and rod kits over last few years. Broken frame 7 broken rear brake plates 3 broken front brake plates Several duff ignitions Hideous appetite for swing arm bushes Clutch with more of an aversion to disengaging than Honda have for releasing their 4T bog wheeler. Brakes that actually make you accelerate when applied, the type of acceleration that is only matched by the resultant passage of #### through the bowels and widening of the eyes Repeatedly breaking or bending gear lever as the engine is wider than all of the rolly pollys standing side by side. A recent propensity to pink and knock for no apparent reason causing more detonation than found in the average working rock quarry - culminating in the mother of all blow-ups at this weekend's Classic Experts which I had been so looking forward to and didn't bloody well finish. It is being pensioned off herewith. Who said Gassers were the least reliable

been fighting this for too long and just have to do it '95 TYZ on it's 9th birthday, several SSDT, numerous centre trials, nationals, club trials, even subjected to some 'throttle to the stop' road racing around Scottish twisties and so far; still on original piston and rings original clutch engine never been apart never loses water original shock and s/arm bushes bashplate and all of its bolts line up perfectly still does 80mph and a bit It has, finally this year, been treated to some wheel bearings. Hadn't bloody well budgeted for them this year though... Sorry - just couldn't resist it

Oh Yes......... last year. First day before the first group of sections. Not the fuel capacity of the bike to blame though. An Arctic was parked up on the pavement obscuring the flags to turn us into a junction. I didn't know to turn off there so sailed past and went a good way before realising something was wrong. U-turned but ran out before I reached the fuel check. A long push and finally blagged some neat fuel of a farmer to get to the fuel check. Great bloody start to the week. Guy on a Rev 3 was with me and did the same but his bike went a bit further than mine before he ran out. Mishaps like that aside, the fuel capacity on the TYZ is enough to get you around without increasing it. You can put extra fuel in the frame. The bike I have at the moment has been done but without stripping it can't see exactly how it is done and I've never used the extra capacity - and no, it isn't the bike I rode in last year's. The holes on the inside of the frame spars are welded up, A tap/outlet is put into the bottom of the cross-brace that runs between the spars by the carburettor and presumably is connected to the pipe from the tank to carb. There is a breather in the top of the frame just in front of the headstock. What I can't work out is how the fuel gets into the frame in the first place, unless it is filled through this breather. I shouldn't worry though a it will get round on the standard tank.

Oh yes - Not only are some of the girls capable of putting in a decent score in the six days - I was going to say ride but that opens up all sorts of inuendo - they've aquitted themselves pretty well on this thread too. Unlike some blokes, Katy read and understood the original post in the context it was intended, ie; encouraging MORE girls to ride, she didn't take it as demeaning to women. However, far be it from me to stop a good sexist slanging match

Oh dear....... I see a whole new thread on this. It is a very long one on the end of the needle that is stitching Ishy back together after the women have torn him to pieces....

Interesting to read that Dabster, thanks. I know this is off thread now, which I don't approve of, but sod it, everyone else does it and the Mony 4T 'where are they' saga has been done to death. Reason I asked is because I've just bought one in bits to maybe do the ACU Classic on next year. No idea how competitive they are or what they ride like but I've always liked the look of them, as they are cute, so wanted one anyway, even if it is just to look at if it turns out not to be competitive. The motor isn't the TL, it is a purpose built trials motor from Honda Racing, probably based on the XR range. It was used in Honda's own RS200 bike. I think you can get kits to take them to 250. Suspension can be tweaked or altered at the rear and the front is Marzzochi so no problem there. We'll see anyway. Just fancied something different and I like 4 strokes as well as two, but firstly it has to be competitive as the Classic is dominated by modern twinshocks now. Therefore the Majesty is waiting in reserve - the Ossa is hereby pensioned off...

Bloody Hell - I can't believe the animosity Jon H has attracted with his post. Regardless of whether you believe it was the 4T Montesa, all he said was a 4T was louder than a 2T and that is generally the case. If Jon was at the practise ground I think he is referring to there is every chance the landowner has a decibel meter and was on the warpath as the council are close to closing him down through noise - caused mainly by 4T motox, enduro bikes and quads. On the subject of noise, I have a 426 Yam enduro and my mates have 2T KTMs. Regardless of the decibel level (which is a science/load of B*****ks in its own right - my Ossa registered 107 at one trial - yeah right) my Yam can be heard from some distance away being ridden in thick woods at our practise area, whether being revved or pootled along, the KTMs can't so you wouldn't know they were there. The low thump of a 4T carries much further than the 2T. (Therefore I don't ride my bike there) None of us as Joe public know whether 2 Strokes are dead or not just as none of us know whether that was a 4T Mont or not. We weren't there. They are, or have been available in Europe so who's to say someone hasn't brought one into the UK independently. There have been plenty of direct imports, why not a 4T Mont. Give the guy a break. He hasn't been malicious or insulted anyone, said anything damaging (how is what he said damaging...??) What did everyone get so wound up about? It's like a bunch of bird watchers miffed that they weren't the first to spot the newly hatched lesser spotted throat warbling 4T Monty. Lighten up. As far as 2 stokes being dead, how can anyone on here answer that one. If it was intended to generate a debate it certainly did that...... just not on the actual topic. An educated guess would be that if 2 strokes were about to be outlawed Yamaha would not have invested a tidy sum in developing their all new alloy framed YZ125 and 250 2 strokes but left the 4 strokes with the steel ones. KTM have only just introduced brand new 2 stroke engines in their enduro range. That suggests they will be around for a while yet. If the FIM want to ban 2 stokes from the WTC let them. As club riders do we really give a stuff. If the other factories can't afford to develop 4T WTC contenders what are the FIM going to do? Close the championship down or have it as the Montesa/Honda challenge for maybe half a dozen riders, or allow 2 strokes to continue. The FIM can't ban the use of 2 strokes in individual countries outside of the WTC, so as long as government/global legislation allows them to be produced the factories will continue to produce them if there is a demand. Just a personal opinion.

Love this sort of stuff. In the 60s and (for me) 70s, having a works bike fitted with special bits sitting in the same queue to a section as a club rider just added to the interest and enjoyment of competing. The works parts or next year's development bits always seemed more visible then than they are now and always captured the imagination. Works Sherpas with different airboxes, 247 Monts with prototype 348 motors, Prototype Gripper which was half Gripper, half MAR, Tony Gorgot on the 330 Mont prototype in SSDT etc. One-off works bikes like the short/long stroke Hondas. Privateers did their own thing too, Don Smith's Stag, Steve Wilson, Bultaco. I guess the last of the true works specials were the RTL Hondas. Most factory bikes just look the same as over the counter bikes now. I know they aren't before anyone steps in, but they don't really look any different. Sadly I don't have any pics to contribute but I'm hoping others do.

Not sure what that is saying about the Seeley. Cough up Dabster.

No takers so I'll have a go then. Purple wheel model is actually a 94/95 and they are generally thought of as the best in terms of power delivery and grip. Biggest problem, depending on how tall you are, is the high, in current terms, standard footrest position but this can obviously be resolved by moving them. The 96 bike was the first to have the exhaust manifold with the canister on it and was probably a bit sharper as you have said. I had a new 98 bike and it was too zippy off the bottom. Had to give it to Nigel Birkett to soften off with some porting work and it was fantastic after that. Gripped like hell. 96 onward also had a 5mm, maybe 10? spacer under the top yolk to higher the bar position. However, as the youngest bike is now about 6 years old they are all generally pretty soft in their power delivery as they've lost any sharpness they may have had. Don't interperate this as flat or gutless though because they aren't. They are a tremendously torquey engine, just very manageable off the throttle which means you aren't 'chasing' them through sections. You can pretty well ride them without always riding the clutch, even in higher gears. The engine will pull any gear you want they are that torquey. I haven't owned a Scorpa but I've had a go on a few and in my opinion (and that is all it is) the Scorpa engine doesn't have the same torquey flexible feel as the TYZ. The Scorpas I have ridden still had a softish delivery but they weren't as smooth around say nil to quarter throttle and had that distinctive slightly jerkey 'beat' that most modern bikes have if you ride slowly without the clutch. You can drop a TYZ down to nothing in a section, then pull away again with no snatch, jerkiness etc. even in 3rd or 4th gear. It's power delivery just seems so linear all the way through, no sudden bursts or surges, just responds precisely to the throttle. Beautiful engine - again in my opinion. The difference is probably only down to the different exhaust systems. Just to clarify, I'm not saying the Scorpa isn't as good, I just prefer the feel of the TYZ motor as it feels more torquey to me.

Motopat - I've found a manual. I think it is for the later bike as it is the 2 part one. Doesn't really make any difference though as the info you will want from it will cover all models, such as oil quantities, fork oil etc. The things that changed on the bikes over the years won't really affect general servicing. These were different ignitions, rear shocks, front pipe, longer/shorter tail pipes and the later bikes had a spacer under the top yolk to raise the bars to compensate for the high footpeg position but that's about it. The only thing you may notice is that if you ever need to remove the flywheel yours may not be the same as the one in the manual and therefore need a different puller. All you would need to do is give your dealer the engine number and they can supply the correct puller. Or you could make one. Whilst talking about servicing, if your front forks work ok I'd leave them alone as they are a sod to work on. Straightforward enough, just time consuming. If you do ever need to change the oil set the level to 95mm. 10 weight works ok for me. If I remember rightly, the manual says they take 440ish cc of oil per leg but you cant just fill them with this quantity. They have to be bled to fill all of the internal chambers, as per the manual. If you just fill them with 443cc it is way too much and they won't work. Once bled and the level set the final quantity is a lot less than 440cc. E-mail me your address to dajwood@aol.com and I will send it to you. It's in good condition apart from a slight water stain on the top of the first few pages due to a water leak in the garage, but it is ok, there is no deterioration or anything. Don't want anything for it as it is a spare. Once you've had a chance to get used to the bike there are a couple of things worth doing. As said before, footrests are quite high as it is an early 90s design so it is worth changing them for wider, modern type rests and moving them down and back a bit to get a better stance when standing on the bike. Standard position you can feel that you are tipped over the bars too much. Depends on your height as to whether this is causes you a problem or not. If you find the engine a bit quick off the throttle you can move the ignition stator to full retard to slow the response a bit. This won't hev any affect on the engine's power and it will still pull perfectly well, just won't hit so hard. TYZs don't have much steering lock so if it hasn't been done already you can'sculpture' the frame either side to allow more lock. Most have been done by now. Also have the fork legs protruding from the top yolk buy about 10mm to quicken up the steering. All this is personal preference of course and you may find the bike fine as it is, but these are some of the mods done. Hope you enjoy the bike. They may no longer be 'modern' but are still very capable and the best thing about them is the build quality which should give you hassle free riding. Mine is 10 years old, been through the scottish 6 day more than once and is still on original rings, shock linkage etc.