baldilocks Posted December 3, 2014 Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 Adam raga WTC on a Gas Gas 2005 and 2006 i think ? 4rt launched 2005. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 4, 2014 Report Share Posted December 4, 2014 Honda success at wtc is a lot to do with Toni Bou and a large budget .All the others face a big struggle against that 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 I think Doug wanted to develop the 4rt (and damn good job he did, along with his team) he could of gone back to a 2t for any manufacturer, they would of torn his arm off.. Proof of the pudding is the fact the 4rt has never been beaten in WTC... IMHO he is the man for the job at vertigo. And it looks like they want to be bib and braces sure of the bike before its released. But nothing will be able to test it for the weekend warriors lack of maintainance,poor servicing, mechanical abuse.... Only time will tell. I just hope it will be good at normal non WTC type trials aswell. No bouncing just "Real Trials" !! I thought doug went to beta 2t after 4rt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffsgasgas Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 I thought doug went to beta 2t after 4rt? You are correct. I understood that he was the driving force behind changing Beta to the linkage based suspension to improve reaction characteristics. Could just be a rumor. --Biff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 I always got the feeling DL never totally settled on the 4T and may have had at least another WTC but for working on 4T development. Nice to see JD on the Vertigo, should clearly benchmark it against other bikes and its a fair bet that it will be competitive at WTC. Although its new there is nothing individually new on the vertigo, EFI has is on the Ossa and has not shown a competitive advantage over carburated 2ts. The trellis frame has been tried in other branches of 2 wheel sport but generally its performance has been inferior to alloy beam frames. DL says it gives increased rigidity, but when Jeff Smiths brazed steel (chrome moly?) frame was replaced with lighter more rigid titanium it did not perform as well. If someone wanted to improve (as in more capable at WTC) on the presently most competitive bikes what should they change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgas249uk Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 Yes , to be rigid , or not to be rigid That is the question . There seem to be arguments for both rigidity and flex. It makes no difference to me . Trials bikes mostly make little technological baby steps in the direction of progress. I think Vertigo does this + a little more. As a full package however , the Vertigo might just blow the others into the weeds. Its always 80% ish down to the rider anyway so smaller marques like Ossa ,JTG really never have a chance to fully prove themselves to anything other than their owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 I always got the feeling DL never totally settled on the 4T and may have had at least another WTC but for working on 4T development. Expert on DL again I see? As far as I recall his development work was not that great, he had input as did Fuji but as Amos was the cotracted development rider and pretty much worked on it non stop i would question the accuracy of your statement. I do remember Dougie turning up at one world round and being unhappy early on at power output. My guess is that by the time he was settled on the 4rt in 2005 3rd was the best he could have done anyway? Raga had won on the new pro whose gearbox lasted for a season or two so he would win in 04 and 05 then Bou won in 06, so are you saying if doug had been on a 2t he would have finished first in 04 05 or 06? Although its new there is nothing individually new on the vertigo, EFI has is on the Ossa and has not shown a competitive advantage over carburated 2ts. Again what do you base this on? In France with Jeroni on the new works ossa, and oliveras thereafter, I saw there was some clear power advatages and it certainly ran very clean. As they havent been that many around I wondered why Vertigo have chosen EFI but they clearly have decided/tested and proved, that there is a competitive advantage, are you saying you know better than them? I say lets see how vertigo go at sheffield before we make too many assumptions on whether this or that works? Good luck to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fracy Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 I always got the feeling DL never totally settled on the 4T and may have had at least another WTC but for working on 4T development. Nice to see JD on the Vertigo, should clearly benchmark it against other bikes and its a fair bet that it will be competitive at WTC. Although its new there is nothing individually new on the vertigo, EFI has is on the Ossa and has not shown a competitive advantage over carburated 2ts. The trellis frame has been tried in other branches of 2 wheel sport but generally its performance has been inferior to alloy beam frames. DL says it gives increased rigidity, but when Jeff Smiths brazed steel (chrome moly?) frame was replaced with lighter more rigid titanium it did not perform as well. If someone wanted to improve (as in more capable at WTC) on the presently most competitive bikes what should they change? Blah Blah Blah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 Blah Blah Blah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 Although its new there is nothing individually new on the vertigo, EFI has is on the Ossa and has not shown a competitive advantage over carburated 2ts. That is a ridiculous claim to make. The overall performance of the machine is down to lots of things that need to come together in harmony, so to single out the fuel delivery system alone and point to that by saying it hasn't shown a competitive advantage is just plain stupid. . And then there is the Rider to add in as well of course ! You must just be a troll - That is the only way to explain your posts. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted December 7, 2014 Report Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) when Jeff Smiths brazed steel (chrome moly?) frame was replaced with lighter more rigid titanium it did not perform as well. Steel is stiffer than Titanium. Typical Young's modulus of chrome-moly steels is 180-200 GPa Typical Young's modulus of titanium alloys is 105-120 GPa Edited December 7, 2014 by neils on wheels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted December 7, 2014 Report Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) Yes but which is more resilient... fatigue cycles ... etc............. If I remember my basics , chrome moly tube works out better ...... 'cause it can flex a bit and survive Glenn Edited December 7, 2014 by axulsuv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) Yes but which is more resilient... fatigue cycles ... etc............. If I remember my basics , chrome moly tube works out better ...... 'cause it can flex a bit and survive Glenn There is a certain dependence on the specific alloy, but in general titanium. Titanium's best property is its combination of light weight and resilience, hence it is such a good material for hardtail mountain bike frames, that is it allows some built in flex and thus has a more lively feel than equivalent steel, aluminium or carbon frames. Steel is a far superior material for motorbike frames, because it is just plain stronger. Edited December 8, 2014 by neils on wheels 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinshocked Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Did a quick count this morning. It's about even 50/50% split. Half of the posts here are NOT about Vertigo. That a 1/2 hour of my life I'll never get back. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted December 8, 2014 Report Share Posted December 8, 2014 Just to clarify the titanium vs steel / CrMo situation. Yes size for size steel and CrMo are stronger and stiffer than Ti, but because Ti has a specific density just over half that of steel / CrMo, for a given weight of frame Ti is far stronger and stiffer. But as Jeff smith / BSA found out that extra stiffness did not prove to be an advantage. Atomant - what do you feel is individually new on the Vertigo? Regarding DL. My feeling is that the most detrimental thing to his career was the crash where he hurt his ankles, but changing to a bike (almost certainly underdeveloped at that stage) with significantly different characteristics and back again can't have helped either. DL has stated that the trellis frame on the Vertigo is to increase rigidity. This it will almost certainly do. What I question is whether increased rigidity is necessarily an advantage, and at this time I do not know. What I do know is that in car racing increased chassis rigidity does improve performance but on motorcycles this has not necessarily been the case. Jeff Smiths BSA is an early example, but over stiff frames have proven to be detrimental in both MotoGP and WSB. I did not say EFI on 2T had or had not given more power, I said it had not demonstrated any competitive advantage, can anyone give an example of where it has? Is more power what most riders need? I will start another topic on this so as not to clog this Vertigo topic. If EFI and advanced design were what most riders wanted, Ossa would be selling a lot more, but in fact the best selling 2T bikes are carburated and 2 out of the 3 have simple ferrous metal based frames. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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